Hamas Israel War

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Pure confection and whataboutery.

You said you were a clear thinker, well I disagree. If you are unable to consider how people react or behave in different situations, then I would challenge your assertion.

Discussing IDF's behaviour in a different context is a valid discussion since it posits the argument that they behave the way have in Gaza *because* they are in Gaza and their targets are, in their eyes, not worth the same consideration as their own people would merit.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well, he's correct.

Completely hypothetical invention.

Here's another one.



The answer is, of course, Yes. in any way, shape or form. The Palestinians are perceived as disposable by Hamas and it is this mindset, driven by the evil jihadist ideology, that delivers what we see before us.

You know prior to October 7th 620 Palestinians had been killed by Israelis this year, how many Israelis had been killed by Palestinians 6, that's not perceived as disposable it's actually disposing of people, better people than me will know why we have anything to do with the Israeli government

What is worse is many in the West looking on and effectively endorsing these war crimes as they march through cities chanting from the river to the sea. Out of the Western leaders, no one has the guts to call this out.

Tiny minority but hey if it deflects from the meaning of the march and the reason most people were there it makes sense to paint a picture

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Originally Posted by ianch99

not worth the same consideration as their own people would merit.

You only have to look at Hebron to know this is true

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

in their eyes, not worth the same consideration as their own people would merit.

The Israeli governments duty is to it's citizens.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You know prior to October 7th 620 Palestinians had been killed by Israelis this year, how many Israelis had been killed by Palestinians 6, that's not perceived as disposable it's actually disposing of people, better people than me will know why we have anything to do with the Israeli government




Tiny minority but hey if it deflects from the meaning of the march and the reason most people were there it makes sense to paint a picture

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You only have to look at Hebron to know this is true

If you research the history of the area, you can easily see the decades of ethnic cleaning in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The denial of this, in the face of UN resolutions, helps to understand the mindset in play. Israel as represented by the current & past Likud administrations, feels it can go beyond boundaries that most democratic governments would baulk at. Why? Because of the support of the US and the billions of dollars it provides.

When criticised, it is quick to play the Anti-Semitism & Holocaust cards to shout down legitimate calls for restraint. Until Israel is held to account for its actions, what we saw during the Hamas attack will just repeat, again and again, destabilising the whole region.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You said you were a clear thinker, well I disagree. If you are unable to consider how people react or behave in different situations, then I would challenge your assertion.

Discussing IDF's behaviour in a different context is a valid discussion since it posits the argument that they behave the way have in Gaza *because* they are in Gaza and their targets are, in their eyes, not worth the same consideration as their own people would merit.

The clear thinkers are those who understand what is unavoidable when a deadly enemy surround themselves with innocent men, women and children to avoid being attacked themselves.

There are casualties in war. Look at Ukraine. Look at Yemen. Join the dots.

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Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You know prior to October 7th 620 Palestinians had been killed by Israelis this year, how many Israelis had been killed by Palestinians 6, that's not perceived as disposable it's actually disposing of people, better people than me will know why we have anything to do with the Israeli government




Tiny minority but hey if it deflects from the meaning of the march and the reason most people were there it makes sense to paint a picture

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:04 ----------



You only have to look at Hebron to know this is true

And why, pray, did the Israelis kill those nice Palestinians who were just having a little game with them by continually firing rockets at Israel?

We need to have a grown up conversation about this sort of thing and stop engaging in these shallow and absurd comments. It’s Hamas that doesn’t want peace and deliberately wrecked the peace talks by this dreadful act of barbarism.

And yet only Israel is the target of the vitriol.

---------- Post added at 19:02 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

If you research the history of the area, you can easily see the decades of ethnic cleaning in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The denial of this, in the face of UN resolutions, helps to understand the mindset in play. Israel as represented by the current & past Likud administrations, feels it can go beyond boundaries that most democratic governments would baulk at. Why? Because of the support of the US and the billions of dollars it provides.

When criticised, it is quick to play the Anti-Semitism & Holocaust cards to shout down legitimate calls for restraint. Until Israel is held to account for its actions, what we saw during the Hamas attack will just repeat, again and again, destabilising the whole region.

Cause and effect. This time, Hamas has gone too far. They will no longer be in existence to be able to respond this time around.

As for Iran, their bluff has been called and they have now confirmed that they will not be retaliating.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Look at Ukraine.

Indeed, a war that’s gone on ten times longer and has less civilian deaths, less women deaths and less child deaths.

There’s nothing “clear thinking” about supporting and rationalising unrestricted warfare on civilians, civilian infrastructure, hospitals, refugee camps, churches and mosques.

Hamas will long outlive Israeli credibility in this conflict.

Terror groups commit acts all around the world and it never, ever, permits reprisals on this scale.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Indeed, a war that’s gone on ten times longer and has less civilian deaths, less women deaths and less child deaths.

There’s nothing “clear thinking” about supporting and rationalising unrestricted warfare on civilians, civilian infrastructure, hospitals, refugee camps, churches and mosques.

Hamas will long outlive Israeli credibility in this conflict.

Terror groups commit acts all around the world and it never, ever, permits reprisals on this scale.

There really is no choice when brutal terrorists hide themselves away in the population, using their own civilians as shields.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

There really is no choice when brutal terrorists hide themselves away in the population, using their own civilians as shields.

Assuming that’s actually true - in many cases the IDF claims remain uncorroborated - there absolutely is a choice whether to raze entire civilian areas to the ground, attack hospitals, churches, mosques and refugee camps killing thousands of innocent civilians in the process.

It’s also a choice to restrict humanitarian aid, medical supplies, food, water, fuel and force civilians to flee their homes then destroy everything they have behind them.

American and European leaders were absolutely clear when Russia commenced it’s special military operation that acts far less severe than these were war crimes. This double standard erodes western credibility around the world.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Look at Yemen.

People don’t care about Yemen OB, it doesn’t tick the same luxury beliefs/ virtue signalling boxes. There isn’t a snazzy flag or catchy chant to sing and most importantly………there’s no Jews involved.

No, no one is marching for Yemen. I doubt many on one of the recent marches could point to Yemen on a map.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

People don’t care about Yemen OB, it doesn’t tick the same luxury beliefs/ virtue signalling boxes. There isn’t a snazzy flag or catchy chant to sing and most importantly………there’s no Jews involved.

No, no one is marching for Yemen. I doubt many on one of the recent marches could point to Yemen on a map.

Before mentions of Yemen in this thread there have been three references to Yemen on the forum since 2018 and one of those was Covid vaccination rates. With the extensive thread on the situation in Ukraine does that also mean everyone in that thread was merely virtue signalling their luxury beliefs with a snazzy flag?

It’s entirely unreasonable to tar pretty much the entire world as anti-Semitic for having the audacity to believe Israel doesn’t have a right to kill Palestinians with impunity so long as there’s an outside chance a single Hamas militant might be hit in the school, hospital or refugee camp.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Before mentions of Yemen in this thread there have been three references to Yemen on the forum since 2018 and one of those was Covid vaccination rates. With the extensive thread on the situation in Ukraine does that also mean everyone in that thread was merely virtue signalling their luxury beliefs with a snazzy flag?

It’s entirely unreasonable to tar pretty much the entire world as anti-Semitic for having the audacity to believe Israel doesn’t have a right to kill Palestinians with impunity so long as there’s an outside chance a single Hamas militant might be hit in the school, hospital or refugee camp.

It’s an aside, but I am very confident that if Israel was an Arab Muslim state, undertaking the same actions in Gaza, very few ( in this country and around the world) would give a toss.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

It’s an aside, but I am very confident that if Israel was an Arab Muslim state, undertaking the same actions in Gaza, very few ( in this country and around the world) wouldn’t give a toss.

It’s not an aside. Either stand by your conviction that everyone calling for a ceasefire is anti-Semitic or don’t imply it.

It’s a well known trope deployed by Israel consistently to attempt to censor its critics. What is the mechanism to speak out against Israel’s actions in a way that isn’t anti-Semitic? If the answer is there is none the question really should be why their religion gives them a free pass.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s not an aside. Either stand by your conviction that everyone calling for a ceasefire is anti-Semitic or don’t imply it.

I’ll stand by it, and I’m not talking about just the cease fire.

I don’t think I could be any clearer.

If it wasn’t Jews undertaking this retaliatory operations no one would care.

When we and the yanks were doing it for over a decade we didn’t get as much, no screams at similar scale for a ceasefire in Afghanistan and Iraq and that was years, not weeks.

If it was two Arab-Muslim states it would hardly make the news here.

[jfman]

And by what mechanism can someone call for a ceasefire and not be anti-Semitic?

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Originally Posted by Pierre

If it was two Arab-Muslim states it would hardly make the news here.

One may contest, as an aside, that’d depend how much oil was under it.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

And by what mechanism can someone call for a ceasefire and not be anti-Semitic?

It’s not the calling for a ceasefire that gets my ire. It’s the numbers and type of people marching through the streets calling for it.

As I say, if it was two Arab-Muslim nations at it you wouldn’t get 200,000 in London marching for a ceasefire, you’d be lucky to get 200.

Indigo and Barnaby wouldn’t be marching calling for genocide, “Queers for Palestine” wouldn’t be flying their misconceived flags, Socialist Worker wouldn’t be there.

It’s clear, only the Jews bring out the crowds.

One may contest, as an aside, that’d depend how much oil was under it.

Not a massive amount of oil in Afghanistan, but what there is they’ve given to China.