Hamas Israel War - Page 14

1andrew1 · 13-10-2023, 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking

Because it comes just AFTER one side has attacked. Any reaction by Israel is not to be allowed.

Israel has responded though.

The whole point is surely irrelevant as in a conflict, one party will always have attacked more recently than the other party.

**Hugh** · 13-10-2023, 11:45

I’m not sure how this gets resolved medium to long-term, as the current Israeli Government can be kicked out by the voters if they are unhappy/dissatisfied how they are dealing with this, but the Gaza Strip doesn’t have elections (and never has done, since Hamas formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip in 2006 without elections) to offer Palestinians the same choice.

jfman · 13-10-2023, 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

I’m not sure how this gets resolved medium to long-term, as the current Israeli Government can be kicked out by the voters if they are unhappy/dissatisfied how they are dealing with this, but the Gaza Strip doesn’t have elections (and never has done, since Hamas formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip in 2006 without elections) to offer Palestinians the same choice.

Steady now. We wouldn't want to inadvertently argue the point that the Israeli people are complicit in war crimes merely because they vote for the Government committing them. That's a slippery slope to go down and plays into terrorists hands.

External political pressure needs to go on both sides for de-escalation, however like you I can't see it. If it happens it will be far too late. One could reasonably anticipate the events of the next few days will play into the hands of those who accuse the west of double standards and negatively affect western influence across the Middle East and the global south.

The FA taking the "all victims" approach tonight, as with the Football League fixtures played this weekend and Premier League next, suggests to me their member clubs have concern for the image of the domestic game (and thus the international revenue) by being associated with a solely pro-Israel tribute. Although it could have potentially played very badly here too.

Pierre · 13-10-2023, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

The FA taking the "all victims" approach tonight, as with the Football League fixtures played this weekend and Premier League next, suggests to me their member clubs have concern for the image of the domestic game (and thus the international revenue) by being associated with a solely pro-Israel tribute. Although it could have potentially played very badly here too.

The FA shouldn't get involved in politics full stop. The Qatar fiasco showed how wedded they are to any just cause. Corporate virtue signalling.

**Hugh** · 13-10-2023, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

Steady now. We wouldn't want to inadvertently argue the point that the Israeli people are complicit in war crimes merely because they vote for the Government committing them. That's a slippery slope to go down and plays into terrorists hands.

External political pressure needs to go on both sides for de-escalation, however like you I can't see it. If it happens it will be far too late. One could reasonably anticipate the events of the next few days will play into the hands of those who accuse the west of double standards and negatively affect western influence across the Middle East and the global south.

The FA taking the "all victims" approach tonight, as with the Football League fixtures played this weekend and Premier League next, suggests to me their member clubs have concern for the image of the domestic game (and thus the international revenue) by being associated with a solely pro-Israel tribute. Although it could have potentially played very badly here too.

No one is arguing that point, inadvertently or otherwise - it seems a strange take on the point that the Palestinians don't have a choice, but, you do you...

1andrew1 · 13-10-2023, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

I’m not sure how this gets resolved medium to long-term, as the current Israeli Government can be kicked out by the voters if they are unhappy/dissatisfied how they are dealing with this, but the Gaza Strip doesn’t have elections (and never has done, since Hamas formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip in 2006 without elections) to offer Palestinians the same choice.

I guess all we can hope is that in time, with different personalities involved, a peace settlement will eventually happen. That could of course be outside all our lifetimes.

Pierre · 13-10-2023, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I guess all we can hope is that in time, with different personalities involved, a peace settlement will eventually happen.

Not when the terms of one side is complete destruction of the other.

1andrew1 · 13-10-2023, 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Not when the terms of one side is complete destruction of the other.

Terms and people change over time. As I said, a settlement is unlikely in our lifetime.

Pierre · 13-10-2023, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Terms and people change over time. As I said, a settlement is unlikely in our lifetime.

Absolutely, it hasn’t changed in the last 75 years it won’t change in the next.

It may change if the Palestinians rise up and reject Hamas, and drive them out. Apparently there’s at least 1.25 million innocent Palestinian adults in Gaza, their current predicament is a direct result of Hamas’ actions. They should get rid of Hamas and support someone that wants to coexist.

Without Hamas there’s a chance for peace. With Hamas only more of this.

jfman · 13-10-2023, 18:42

With the current Israeli government there is only more of this. Should they also rise up?

The latest Guardian update has this

Quote:

At least 1,799 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza from Israeli strikes, including 583 children and 351 women, according to Gazan health ministry on Friday. Eleven Palestinians were shot and killed in the West Bank by Israeli forces on Friday, the Palestinian health ministry said.

583 children.

The expectation that these families should do anything other than blame Israel is both fanciful and extremely naive. In no way, shape or form can the war crimes of the Israeli state be described as proportionate and we've only just begun.

Dare I ask how many more need to die before you think it's enough? Or is it just a blank cheque?

mrmistoffelees · 13-10-2023, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Absolutely, it hasn’t changed in the last 75 years it won’t change in the next.

It may change if the Palestinians rise up and reject Hamas, and drive them out. Apparently there’s at least 1.25 million innocent Palestinian adults in Gaza, their current predicament is a direct result of Hamas’ actions. They should get rid of Hamas and support someone that wants to coexist.

Without Hamas there’s a chance for peace. With Hamas only more of this.

Watching the news I learnt that there hasn’t been an election since 2007 meaning no one under the age of 35 has ever voted for Hamas.

Whilst I agree with what you say regarding their removal. How does an impoverished population rise up and overthrow a heavily armed, state backed bunch of murdering dicks ?

Pierre · 13-10-2023, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

With the current Israeli government there is only more of this.

None of the Palestinians that have died or been injured, since Saturday, would be so if not because of Hamas’ actions on that day.

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:19 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

How does an impoverished population rise up and overthrow a heavily armed state

There can’t be but a few hundred Hamas.

But, I don’t know.

All I know is there is no future for Palestinians in Gaza or anywhere else, with Hamas in charge.

mrmistoffelees · 13-10-2023, 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

None of the Palestinians that have died or been injured, since Saturday, would be so if not because of Hamas’ actions on that day.

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:19 ----------

There can’t be but a few hundred Hamas.

But, I don’t know.

All I know is there is no future for Palestinians in Gaza or anywhere else, with Hamas in charge.

Agree strongly in your last point.

A quick google says anywhere between 7k & 30k even taking taking the low figure it’s a not insignificant amount.

Hamas aren’t thick they know they stand no chance in an open conflict with the IDF. So they go into hiding and then what ? Israel can occupy Gaza but at some point they’ll have to withdraw and then…..

1andrew1 · 13-10-2023, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Agree strongly in your last point.

A quick google says anywhere between 7k & 30k even taking taking the low figure it’s a not insignificant amount.

Hamas aren’t thick they know they stand no chance in an open conflict with the IDF. So they go into hiding and then what ? Israel can occupy Gaza but at some point they’ll have to withdraw and then…..

It can't be solved militarily.

A change of regime in Iran could lead to funding for Hamas being severely reduced but how likely is that?

mrmistoffelees · 13-10-2023, 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It can't be solved militarily.

A change of regime in Iran could lead to funding for Hamas being severely reduced but how likely is that?

About as unlikely as it gets. You would also need to see a change from the right wing Israeli government.

Meanwhile

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67102956