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Will Scotland Leave the UK?
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Old 14-10-2020, 21:28   #3436
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Scottish tax receipts presumably


---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:27 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Scottish tax receipts are unknown
I like your thinking
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Old 14-10-2020, 21:29   #3437
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Scottish tax receipts are unknown. GERS gets discredited every year as an estimate. An estimate that relies on HMRC apportioning tax receipts to Scotland in a way that's simply impossible to calculate accurately. VAT for one.

Neither does it reflect the ability of Scotland to vary it's tax receipts. Maybe something like Sweden - raising public expenditure to 50% of GDP, raising some taxes to support it and having a happier society overall. High levels of public trust between Government and the people. A healthcare system that wouldn't readily be overwhelmed by Covid. It could really be something to aspire to...
Well those Scots, Blair Brown, and Darling were happy with it.
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Old 14-10-2020, 21:30   #3438
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I believe what they have to show for it is.......a nation, hollow or not. As it was 2no. World Wars that near bankrupted us. The 1st doing the most damage, followed by the Great Depression and then the 2nd.

I’m not sure the alternative, certainly 2nd time around the 1st we shouldn’t have been involved in, would have been conducive For anyone and considering the alternative was certainly worth the money.
Hmmm. I'm not sure selling off every meaningful state asset chasing a low tax economy was totally unavoidable - certainly the Scandanavian countries have taken a different approach and seem happy enough. Plenty of assets, a happy population.

We've got a miserable population, trying to ensure that misery transcends to future generations, I'm guessing because the national psyche has a sense of missed opportunity and denial. However, that's I'm sure beyond the scope of the Scottish independence thread.

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:29 ----------

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Well those Scots, Blair Brown, and Darling were happy with it.
Give me their wages and pension pots and I'll vote to stay. I'll even make after dinner speeches on the subject for thousands a go. I do a great Mr T impersonation too.
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Old 14-10-2020, 21:31   #3439
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Again this is based on UK Government apportioning tax receipts to Scotland in a manner that cannot genuinely be done due to the complexities of some taxes. VAT being one of the biggest challenges.
That ALSO means nobody truly can claim that the deficit is actually lower.
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Old 14-10-2020, 21:37   #3440
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post


---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:27 ----------



I like your thinking
All countries fund everything through tax receipts and borrowing - that stands to reason.

It's also true to say that GERS doesn't reflect what that amount would be. So the two statements I made aren't as contradictory as they appear.

---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
That ALSO means nobody truly can claim that the deficit is actually lower.
It certainly needs better work on the matter than GERS.

I will say though that GERS is an age old argument - predates 2014. This line of argument isn't going to be 'news' to the 58%.

Last edited by jfman; 14-10-2020 at 21:40.
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Old 14-10-2020, 21:47   #3441
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
All countries fund everything through tax receipts and borrowing - that stands to reason.

It's also true to say that GERS doesn't reflect what that amount would be. So the two statements I made aren't as contradictory as they appear.

---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------



It certainly needs better work on the matter than GERS.
They don't all fund it by borrowing. As I pointed out, in the recent past even EU countries have been unable to borrow. They had to be propped up by the EU, so who would be expected to pick up Scotland's tab?
And what if any adjustment of the GERS figures led to a higher deficit? What exactly is Scotland producing, that produces the required massive missing tax income? Can't be oil as that is easily separated.
Have the SNP come up with what they consider to be the true figures? Or do they simply complain because they don't like the answer?
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Old 14-10-2020, 21:48   #3442
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Hmmm. I'm not sure selling off every meaningful state asset chasing a low tax economy was totally unavoidable
That is not what indebted later generations as you alluded to, it was the costs of two wars that I explained.

The “State Assets”, would they be the assets they robbed from the private sector?

Hey, the assets are still there. All the state has to do is go a thieve them again from the people that own them.
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Old 14-10-2020, 21:56   #3443
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
That is not what indebted later generations as you alluded to, it was the costs of two wars that I explained.

The “State Assets”, would they be the assets they robbed from the private sector?

Hey, the assets are still there. All the state has to do is go a thieve them again from the people that own them.
I'd be hugely interested to read on how the mass privatisations of the 1980s and 1990s were all companies that previously existed in the private sector. But I think that's for another thread.

Generations are indebted because of the generations who went before them and the political choices to not address the debt and pass it down. Oddly, the generation that benefited the most from selling state assets wants to bypass responsibility for the debts it didn't address. Completely unsurprising, but masquerading this as a sincere or noble duty to 'balance the books' is laughable.

---------- Post added at 20:56 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
They don't all fund it by borrowing. As I pointed out, in the recent past even EU countries have been unable to borrow. They had to be propped up by the EU, so who would be expected to pick up Scotland's tab?
And what if any adjustment of the GERS figures led to a higher deficit? What exactly is Scotland producing, that produces the required massive missing tax income? Can't be oil as that is easily separated.
Have the SNP come up with what they consider to be the true figures? Or do they simply complain because they don't like the answer?
The concept of European Monetary Union restricts the ability of single member states, yes, that's because these countries don't have the full range of fiscal powers due to handing them over as part of joining the Euro.

That doesn't defeat the general premise that all state funding comes from taxation or borrowing. Or selling off the state assets I suppose to put coal miners on the dole!
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Old 14-10-2020, 22:20   #3444
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I'd be hugely interested to read on how the mass privatisations of the 1980s and 1990s were all companies that previously existed in the private sector. But I think that's for another thread.

Generations are indebted because of the generations who went before them and the political choices to not address the debt and pass it down. Oddly, the generation that benefited the most from selling state assets wants to bypass responsibility for the debts it didn't address. Completely unsurprising, but masquerading this as a sincere or noble duty to 'balance the books' is laughable.

---------- Post added at 20:56 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------



The concept of European Monetary Union restricts the ability of single member states, yes, that's because these countries don't have the full range of fiscal powers due to handing them over as part of joining the Euro.

That doesn't defeat the general premise that all state funding comes from taxation or borrowing. Or selling off the state assets I suppose to put coal miners on the dole!
The EU DIDN'T restrict the borrowing of those countries. All the EU would be able to do is "fine" those countries.

The bond markets wouldn't buy their debt, NOBODY would lend them anything.
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Dublin returned to international bond markets on Thursday with the sale of a five-year bond, marking the country’s first new issue of long-dated debt since it was forced out of international markets in September 2010.
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Old 14-10-2020, 22:30   #3445
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Cannot believe anyone can say Yes , just because Nicola is on the TV every day, I will never say yes to this question. God help us if they do, as I am too old to move to another country,
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Old 14-10-2020, 22:44   #3446
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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I'd be hugely interested to read on how the mass privatisations of the 1980s and 1990s were all companies that previously existed in the private sector. But I think that's for another thread.
Phones were always government owned, post office etc, granted.

British Rail - formed from private rail companies from 1948.

British Leyland - formed from private car companies. 1975

Electricity - National Grid and Regional DNO’s - The Electricity Act 1947 (repealed 1989) merged 625 electricity companies to be vested in twelve area electricity boards whilst the generation and 132 kV National Grid were vested with the British Electricity Authority.

Water - initially private enterprises but quickly brought into public ownership in the mid-late 1800’s. Not a bad thing at the time.

Coal - National coal board - formed from private coal companies in 1946.

Gas - formed of private gas companies in 1948

Steel - formed of private companies in 1949, unnationalised in 1952, renationalised in 1967.

So really the only one is BT, which was government owned from inception being part of the Royal Mail.

Happy for you to prove me wrong.

That said, given the time and how important it was at that time....water And sanitation probably best run by the authorities. So you can have that too.
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Old 14-10-2020, 22:47   #3447
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Scotland-based Brexit voters against Scottish independence:
If you knew what you know now about the increase in support for Scottish independence; encouraged by Brexit; leading to a risk of Scottish independence and likely re-joining of the EU by Scotland in the future, would you have still voted Leave?
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Old 14-10-2020, 23:14   #3448
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Phones were always government owned, post office etc, granted.

British Rail - formed from private rail companies from 1948.

British Leyland - formed from private car companies. 1975

Electricity - National Grid and Regional DNO’s - The Electricity Act 1947 (repealed 1989) merged 625 electricity companies to be vested in twelve area electricity boards whilst the generation and 132 kV National Grid were vested with the British Electricity Authority.

Water - initially private enterprises but quickly brought into public ownership in the mid-late 1800’s. Not a bad thing at the time.

Coal - National coal board - formed from private coal companies in 1946.

Gas - formed of private gas companies in 1948

Steel - formed of private companies in 1949, unnationalised in 1952, renationalised in 1967.

So really the only one is BT, which was government owned from inception being part of the Royal Mail.

Happy for you to prove me wrong.

That said, given the time and how important it was at that time....water And sanitation probably best run by the authorities. So you can have that too.
Almost all of those in the national interest and worthy of nationalisation. Only cars appear to exist in a genuinely competitive market. The rest are oligopolies, so consumers don’t benefit from perfect equilibrium in pricing.

---------- Post added at 22:14 ---------- Previous post was at 22:14 ----------

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Scotland-based Brexit voters against Scottish independence:
If you knew what you know now about the increase in support for Scottish independence; encouraged by Brexit; leading to a risk of Scottish independence and likely re-joining of the EU by Scotland in the future, would you have still voted Leave?
Max?

Edit apologies - Chris too.
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Old 14-10-2020, 23:43   #3449
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Almost all of those in the national interest and worthy of nationalisation. Only cars appear to exist in a genuinely competitive market. The rest are oligopolies, so consumers don’t benefit from perfect equilibrium in pricing.
Great swerve, worthy of Beckham, but All very not relevant in the slightest.

Quote:
I'd be hugely interested to read on how the mass privatisations of the 1980s and 1990s were all companies that previously existed in the private sector.
Well they all did exist (apart from BT) in the private sector and the only one I’ll give you in national interest is water, and only due to the time period.

My point being, across the several recent posts, is that the State creates nothing. Anything the state has is Either stolen from or gifted by it’s Citizens.
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Old 15-10-2020, 00:01   #3450
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

It’s palpably untrue that the state creates nothing, and a fundamental flaw in your ideology. Which I guess explains the inability to understand an effective coronavirus response - it requires everything you loathe.

I’ll accept though that taxation does fund it, so it does come from the citizens. But it creates what citizens and private enterprise cannot alone. Large scale projects that require common purpose, common goals, and a vision beyond the stock price or profit margin in the next 3-5 years.

We’ve moved on somewhat from Scottish independence, however at least we’ve agreed that Britain is the hollowed out shell of a once-great state. It’s little wonder people of Scotland see little value in clinging to it, especially if your opinion/ideology continues to prevail in England.
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