Changes on the High Street

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

<SNIP>

Businesses going under presents an opportunity though - oversupply of retail space should see the price fall, and business rates will reduce to encourage this. Time to make the Amazons of this world pay their fair share in taxes and get a better balance.

Interesting point. There's very much of a last man standing situation on here. I can imagine John Lewis and hopefully M&S coming out of this and into a somewhat new regime of rents and rates. Also supermarket chains. The likes of Amazon will mop up a huge amount of business and, of course, have no excuse for not paying full taxes.

The Guvmin can do their bit by properly codifying the tax regime and in particular not allowing royalty payments to tax haven companies within companies of the same group, no matter how opaque.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

Businesses going under presents an opportunity though - oversupply of retail space should see the price fall, and business rates will reduce to encourage this. Time to make the Amazons of this world pay their fair share in taxes and get a better balance.

You won't find much traction here for the last point

Interestingly, the FT, that bastion of Communist thinking is saying:

Virus lays bare the frailty of the social contract

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Interesting point. There's very much of a last man standing situation on here. I can imagine John Lewis and hopefully M&S coming out of this and into a somewhat new regime of rents and rates. Also supermarket chains. The likes of Amazon will mop up a huge amount of business and, of course, have no excuse for not paying full taxes.

The Guvmin can do their bit by properly codifying the tax regime and in particular not allowing royalty payments to tax haven companies within companies of the same group, no matter how opaque.

1) Amazon provide goods that are sold by other businesses. Those other businesses then pay tax.

2) Which tax haven are the royalty payments sent to? The Netherlands isn't a tax haven.

3) Royalty payments of Intellectual Property covers a lot more than just Amazon or Google.
4) The centralisation of royalty payments is an obvious simplification by Amazon et al. Why deal with dozens of tax regimes, when you can deal with just one. Just plain common sense.
5) Amazon provide a huge amount of items that are on sale NOWHERE else. Eg Want an HDMI cable? High street says limited choice and high prices. Apart from anything else, the physical stores can't provide enough space for the range of items available.
6) Where are the costs of providing the Intellectual Property or Servers centres(Google) offset against?
7) They are effectively foreign companies. Just as, a car made by Mercedes in Germany will not have UK tax applied against it.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by nomadking

1) Amazon provide goods that are sold by other businesses. Those other businesses then pay tax.

2) Which tax haven are the royalty payments sent to? The Netherlands isn't a tax haven.

3) Royalty payments of Intellectual Property covers a lot more than just Amazon or Google.
4) The centralisation of royalty payments is an obvious simplification by Amazon et al. Why deal with dozens of tax regimes, when you can deal with just one. Just plain common sense.
5) Amazon provide a huge amount of items that are on sale NOWHERE else. Eg Want an HDMI cable? High street says limited choice and high prices. Apart from anything else, the physical stores can't provide enough space for the range of items available.
6) Where are the costs of providing the Intellectual Property or Servers centres(Google) offset against?
7) They are effectively foreign companies. Just as, a car made by Mercedes in Germany will not have UK tax applied against it.

Bad choice for something sold NOWHERE else. Never heard of ebay?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

1) Amazon provide goods that are sold by other businesses. Those other businesses then pay tax.

Can I get my wages paid to me gross then, after all I buy goods and services off people who in turn pay tax.

An absolutely ludicrous analysis.

2) Which tax haven are the royalty payments sent to? The Netherlands isn't a tax haven.

3) Royalty payments of Intellectual Property covers a lot more than just Amazon or Google.
4) The centralisation of royalty payments is an obvious simplification by Amazon et al. Why deal with dozens of tax regimes, when you can deal with just one. Just plain common sense.
5) Amazon provide a huge amount of items that are on sale NOWHERE else. Eg Want an HDMI cable? High street says limited choice and high prices. Apart from anything else, the physical stores can't provide enough space for the range of items available.
6) Where are the costs of providing the Intellectual Property or Servers centres(Google) offset against?
7) They are effectively foreign companies. Just as, a car made by Mercedes in Germany will not have UK tax applied against it.

Then the tax system needs reformed to capture the change in consumption with increased sales taxes on goods and services. After all, that's in our gift. That's why we voted Brexit wasn't it - no pesky EU rules dictating our cross border trade.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Bad choice for something sold NOWHERE else. Never heard of ebay?

This thread and the whinges about Amazon are related to the High Street.
And the difference between eBay and Amazon as far as the high street is concerned is.....? Amazon supply the extra service which does apply UK tax. The startup costs of building the warehouses etc will as USUAL(ie same as for everybody else) eat into the actual tax paid. In the future that will change, again SAME for any other business.

Originally Posted by jfman

Can I get my wages paid to me gross then, after all I buy goods and services off people who in turn pay tax.

Income tax and tax on goods are two different things entirely.

As for those goods & services you buy, do you sell those goods and services on to someone else ?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

Income tax and tax on goods are two different things entirely.

As for those goods & services you buy, do you sell those goods and services on to someone else ?

I know they're different things - my point is that the principle of exempting Amazon, or admonishing them for shifting their cut to the Netherlands (or elsewhere), on the basis of others in the supply chain paying tax is ludicrous.

I'm not claiming they're doing anything illegal - but the system is fundamentally flawed. We voted to leave the EU - I don't think it's reasonable for companies trading in the UK to shift their profits into the EU and pay tax there because it suits them. I want a tax system that suits us.

It's me and all the other idiots on PAYE that have to stump up more as a result to fund our public services.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

I know they're different things - my point is that the principle of exempting Amazon, or admonishing them for shifting their cut to the Netherlands (or elsewhere), on the basis of others in the supply chain paying tax is ludicrous.

I'm not claiming they're doing anything illegal - but the system is fundamentally flawed. We voted to leave the EU - I don't think it's reasonable for companies trading in the UK to shift their profits into the EU and pay tax there because it suits them. I want a tax system that suits us.

It's me and all the other idiots on PAYE that have to stump up more as a result to fund our public services.

Amazon aren't doing anything tax-wise that others haven't been doing for decades. There is nothing stopping any company(eg franchises such as McDonalds) or individual(eg pop stars) shifting their intellectual property rights to any country in the world, including non-EU ones. They are in essence FOREIGN companies.
Where Amazon sell their own physical products, Amazon UK merely stores and delivers them on behalf of Amazon EU SarL. Amazon UK charges Amazon EU for that service and applies UK tax on on those charges. No different to if somebody in the UK, charges commission for arranging a delivery of a Mercedes from Germany.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Amazon aren't doing anything tax-wise that others haven't been doing for decades. There is nothing stopping any company(eg franchises such as McDonalds) or individual(eg pop stars) shifting their intellectual property rights to any country in the world, including non-EU ones. They are in essence FOREIGN companies.
Where Amazon sell their own physical products, Amazon UK merely stores and delivers them on behalf of Amazon EU SarL. Amazon UK charges Amazon EU for that service and applies UK tax on on those charges. No different to if somebody in the UK, charges commission for arranging a delivery of a Mercedes from Germany.

Common practice doesn't make it a modern, progressive application of our tax system. Slavery was common practice, as was the death penalty.

Why would you, a Brexit supporter if I recall, prefer the Dutch government (or any other for that matter) to gain tax revenues over ours for what are fundamentally transactions in the UK? The mind absolutely boggles.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

Common practice doesn't make it a modern, progressive application of our tax system. Slavery was common practice, as was the death penalty.

Why would you, a Brexit supporter if I recall, prefer the Dutch government (or any other for that matter) to gain tax revenues over ours for what are fundamentally transactions in the UK? The mind absolutely boggles.

Yep.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Nonsense. We need more Government support for small businesses to get coronavirus right, get it wrong and we just get more lockdowns and greater economic impact for longer.

Have you been in a school classroom lately? No way to impose social distancing or ensuring adequate hygiene with a shared bathroom facilities. Let alone hundreds of kids pushing through corridors every hour or so to their next lesson in high schools.

Schools aren’t going back til September. The sooner the Coronavirus deniers accept that lockdown is here to stay and stop dangling pseudoscience around as a justification the better.

Businesses going under presents an opportunity though - oversupply of retail space should see the price fall, and business rates will reduce to encourage this. Time to make the Amazons of this world pay their fair share in taxes and get a better balance.

You are a strange kind of economist, jfman. Where is all the government money coming from to support businesses for goodness knows how long?

You are not living in the real world.

The schools will re-open before the summer holidays, quite probably in May. I have not heard anyone 'denying' coronavirus. However, you think that if we have super-human powers to beat it. We don't. It will run its course, and that will be it. The vaccine will come later.

Businesses must be allowed to get back to some kind of normal after this next three weeks are over. It's the vulnerable who need to be isolated, but I doubt whether they will stand for another year or so of imprisonment.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You are a strange kind of economist, jfman. Where is all the government money coming from to support businesses for goodness knows how long?

In the Netherlands seemingly it’s Amazon’s profits in the UK.

You are not living in the real world.

The schools will re-open before the summer holidays, quite probably in May.

We will see. I’m confident in the information I’m hearing and that the science (medical science or economics) will support it. Preparations are underway.

I have not heard anyone 'denying' coronavirus. However, you think that if we have super-human powers to beat it. We don't. It will run its course, and that will be it. The vaccine will come later.

Superpowers not required Old Boy. You are introducing complexity where there is none - an accusation you more frequently level at me.

Businesses must be allowed to get back to some kind of normal after this next three weeks are over. It's the vulnerable who need to be isolated, but I doubt whether they will stand for another year or so of imprisonment.

Business owners need supported through this difficult time, that’s the role of Governments and Central Banks. That results in positive outcomes for everyone.

Must according to who? It’s not backed by science. It isn’t even backed by economics.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You won't find much traction here for the last point

On the contrary, I believe the tax system should be updated and OTT players should pay a respective fair tax based on their revenue made in the countries they operate.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Pierre

On the contrary, I believe the tax system should be updated and OTT players should pay a respective fair tax based on their revenue made in the countries they operate.

Yep - that's what I said earlier.