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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-03-2008, 16:18   #601
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Tech Team to Cable Forum

We look forward to contructive debate that will hopefully clarify many of the issues raised.
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Old 06-03-2008, 16:22   #602
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Hi Stuart,

Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism but lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package.

I hope to reassure you as in the scenario you outline, where customers have to opt in to receive webwise, if you are not opted in, no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out (in your scenario, not opted in) websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be adverts from the OIX system and they will not be relevant to your browsing.

I hope this helps -- email me at techteam@phorm.com with any other comments or questions. Thanks. techteam
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Old 06-03-2008, 16:26   #603
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Hello Tech Team.

I'm sure you are aware that many here have done considerable investigations into your system. Can you please clarify if you intend to carry out another independant audit into your privacy management systems. We appreciate that Earnst & Young have carried out one based on US privacy laws, but the UK is very different. When can we expect a report that covers the UK Data Protection Act, and also RIPA.

---------- Post added at 15:26 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ----------

Also, do you understand the reluctance of end users of this system to trust Phorm, based on your CEO's reported former activities in the Spyware field?

Given this interest, and what appears to be a fairly weak opt-out method, are you not concerned that respected anti spyware and anti trojan programs are simply going to remove your op-out cookies?
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Old 06-03-2008, 16:29   #604
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Can it please be clarified that opt out is a complete opt out and not simply we don't see the adverts but our browsing is still being farmed ??. Thats the most important thing for me i am sure your a nice guy and all but i would trust saddam hussein more then phorm sorry but it's how i feel.
 
Old 06-03-2008, 16:37   #605
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Hi and welcome to the site Tech team (Phorm) Thank you for sparing some time to answering some of our questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tech team View Post

Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism but lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package.
When you say lots of research was conducted, who precisely was asked because when you say add-on, its been made to sound like your protection is something new, isn't the protection provided already by the likes of modern browsers such as Internet Explorer and Firefox etc just the same thing?
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Old 06-03-2008, 16:38   #606
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Welcome TechTeam, and thank you for having the courage to enter the lion's den!

My question...

If the Phorm system goes live on the VM network, and I choose to opt-out of the system by any of the means that you provide in the FAQs on your Webwise site (e.g. allow the "opt-out" cookie to reside on my computer, or block all access by my computer to the domain OIX.net) how much information about my browsing habits that are not currently processed in any way, will still be collected, analysed, added to a profile or relayed to any system which is related to Phorm or its associates/clients? To be totally clear on this point; I am not asking you whether you will use any data about me if I opt-out; I am asking you whether any such information will be sent to anyone (including your company). I understand the semantic differences between the words collect, analyze, send and use and I would like a definitive statement from your company on which, if any, of these you intend to do in the case of an opt-out?
(Edited down to one question, as requested...)
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Old 06-03-2008, 16:41   #607
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

I think it would be viable to let tech team answer one question from one member at a time - Let's not over bombard here... Thanks.

I've been asked to forward your questions to Phorm as well VIA email so I will try to get some answers there too if tech team cannot answer here.
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Old 06-03-2008, 16:45   #608
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tech team View Post
Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism but lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package.

I hope to reassure you as in the scenario you outline, where customers have to opt in to receive webwise, if you are not opted in, no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out (in your scenario, not opted in) websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be adverts from the OIX system and they will not be relevant to your browsing.

I hope this helps -- email me at techteam@phorm.com with any other comments or questions. Thanks. techteam
Thanks tech team.

This reply is, in part, encouraging as it places the onus of responsibility squarely on VM's shoulders as to the implementation of your ad-forcing system. Is that correct?

However, I would like to question your claim that "lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package."
During this research was Webwise presented as, primarily, an anti-phishing service that also gives a "more relevant" browsing experience, without actually revealing to the survey respondants that all their web traffic was being monitored? If the survey was not completely transparent regarding the technology used, then it results are null and void.
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Old 06-03-2008, 16:54   #609
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tech team View Post
Hi Stuart,

Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism but lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package.

I hope to reassure you as in the scenario you outline, where customers have to opt in to receive webwise, if you are not opted in, no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out (in your scenario, not opted in) websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be adverts from the OIX system and they will not be relevant to your browsing.

I hope this helps -- email me at techteam@phorm.com with any other comments or questions. Thanks. techteam
Your answer above explains what will happen in the case of an "opt-in" implementation of your system. Most people here are far more concerned about the possibilty of the system being implemented as an "opt-out" system on the VM network. If this does indeed go ahead as an "opt-out" system, what data, if any, will be collected, analyzed, sent or used on an individual who has manually "opted-out"?
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Old 06-03-2008, 16:55   #610
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

I have a few questions:

1). As others have mentioned, the most important thing for me is getting an assurance that if I opt out it really is out. I want it like a switch that means Phorm never see's a single thing I do, even if it checks my data and then makes the decision to leave me out of it then that would not be good enough. Does the process that decides if a user should be processed by Phorm get performed by the ISP, on the ISP's Network, using the ISP's servers, and with passing no data whatsoever to Phorm and Phorms servers, whether internal or external to the ISP ?

2). Is the decision to go for an 'Opt Out' system entirelly at the behest of ISP's or is Phorm as a company pushing this ? Do you recommend an 'Opt Out' deployment method and if so what do you justify this method on ?

3). Having read some of the information we have available it seems like the scope for advertisement catagories is currently limited. Can/Will this be expanded, if so who will control the decision making processes behind this and what assurances do we have that questionable advertisement content will not be targetted to customers such as adult, gambling, religeous, medical etc. Who decides what is appropriate or not ? who decides how much to expand this system ?

4). Phorm insist that their technology is 100% secure and anonymous, to be blunt about it and I don't mean this in an insulting way, but why should we believe you ? what evidence can you provide to backup these claims ?

5). What performance impact does this system have. If you are analysing all this data before I'm served with the web page surely it must have an overhead, sure it might be very small but I just cannot see how this can have no impact with regards to the speed I get web content. I pay for a 20meg Internet connection, I want it to be fast, not have something in the middle slowing things down.
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Old 06-03-2008, 16:59   #611
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Information Commissioner has received no complaints

A journalist has contacted the Information Commissioner's office and says that the IC office have not received a single complaint about Phorm. Considering over 900 people have signed the e-petition, that seems odd. Anyway, here's some information for writing to the Information Commissioner:

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?6
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Old 06-03-2008, 17:11   #612
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenheart View Post
Wonder if this had any influence in the lovely review the BBC have served up on Phorm

http://networks.silicon.com/webwatch...9163769,00.htm

Are the BBC already part of OIX?
This wouldn't work with OIX unless the beeb were planning to serve ads to their domestic (i.e. UK-resident) internet users - something which I believe the current BBC charter prohibits. It's a catch-22: if this system were implemented in the UK, they'd only get ad-category data for surfers here in the UK, but they'd only be allowed to push ads using the OIX system (or any other system) to non-UK surfers, who, presumably, don't have their ISPs selling them down the river like BT,VM and TT (yet....)
eeeh - this is getting to be more fun than a John LeCarré novel...
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Old 06-03-2008, 17:21   #613
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Re: Information Commissioner has received no complaints

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian Smart View Post
A journalist has contacted the Information Commissioner's office and says that the IC office have not received a single complaint about Phorm.
I contacted the ICO myself regarding this matter and was told that people had rung in and complained. However, the ICO will not act upon a complaint until they receive it in writing and then only accompanied by some evidence that the service provider has provided the complainant with related correspondence.

Basically what this means is that you contact the ISP (Virgin Media) and state your complaint/concerns. VM then reply to you with whatever (they think) will appease you. You then contact the ICO in writing with VM's response attached. The ICO then has the mechanism to act.

In view of this, you're in a catch 22 situation because firstly you have to get a response from VM - not guranteed or takes ages. Then if VM get wind of what's going on, all they have to do is to word their responses accordingly so as not to appear as the bad guy.

In the current climate, (I reckon) you'd be hard pressed to get any kind of response from VM - for just such a reason.

Si thee.
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Old 06-03-2008, 17:26   #614
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

I would like 'tech team' to explain the line "Because of inherent limitations in controls, error or fraud may occur and not be detected." in the auditor's report. When you consider that internet connections are used for on-line banking etc it's not surprising this is making a lot of people nervous.
 
Old 06-03-2008, 17:57   #615
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Opt out opt in who cares?, if this idea is implemented I for one will not be opting in/out I'll just tell Virgin What they can do with their internet connection and if enough people follow suit they will soon change their mind.
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