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400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.
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Old 09-04-2019, 12:13   #16
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

Public transport doesn't work (well) outside the major population centres and no one is going to run a service that isn't used and people aren't going to use a service that doesn't run when wanted. The bus servicing our estate stops at 1730 so no for evening out.

Back to the motorways - I don't like the loss of hard shoulder. If my car or myself need to stop I should just do that not wait that upto 2km to the next layby.

Using the hard shoulder near junctions as exit lane may be OK.

Also it's not just number of cars causing issues but bad driving, not leaving a good following distance and not slowing down in advance of problems (obey matrix signs) leading to traffic compressing and slowing even more.
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Old 09-04-2019, 12:22   #17
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Halcyon View Post
I've always found these to be dangerous. One minute its an extra lane and then the next its closed again. Miss it and you could plough into a broken down car.


This will annoy those that want to save the envionment and all that but the truth is there are ten times more cars on the roads these days and for some roads, such as the M25 we should really have an extra few lanes.
Look at how many they have in the U.S. That seems to work.
That's a good point. Maybe some of these accidents where cars are ploughing into broken down cars is being caused by drivers getting confused as to whether the stretch is a hard shoulder or has been designated as an extra lane.

If a hard shoulder was thought to be necessary when there were much less cars on the road, it doesn't make sense that they are no longer needed.
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Old 09-04-2019, 12:28   #18
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

Vehicle numbers increasing, so more capacity is needed. Build an extra lane? No, just use the hard shoulder. Political economics.
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Old 09-04-2019, 14:44   #19
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

This is the way this country is going. No brain cells whatsoever in planning for the future of transport.
Look at the railways too. We have tracks that are falling to pieces and many lines still not electrified yet.
Money needs to be ploughed into all these. Spend money building more lanes, don't cut corners.
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Old 09-04-2019, 14:59   #20
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Halcyon View Post
This is the way this country is going. No brain cells whatsoever in planning for the future of transport.
Look at the railways too. We have tracks that are falling to pieces and many lines still not electrified yet.
Money needs to be ploughed into all these. Spend money building more lanes, don't cut corners.
This country has always cut corners when it comes to future proofing its transport infrastructure sadly.
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Old 09-04-2019, 15:57   #21
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
Thanks for that Hugh as reading up a bit about it they also intend to shorten the distance between each emergency lay-bys in future from 1.5 miles to one mile which has to be a good thing.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...hire-1-8970286

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/mot...art-motorways/
The government is saying it's safe, but it's hard to see how it is. Yes, by having emergency laybys, you *do* remove the broken down car from the motorway totally, but even then you have to *get* the car to a safe place. Something that may be a lot easier if that safe place is a few meters to your left, than it is is that safe place is a layby a mile or two up the road.

Neither solution is perfect, and even getting the car to the hard shoulder can be dangerous, is it more dangerous than having to push a broken down car a mile, or having to leave it in the middle of the lane until the rescue vehicle comes?

On the plus side, it's probably cheaper to do things this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon View Post
I've always found these to be dangerous. One minute its an extra lane and then the next its closed again. Miss it and you could plough into a broken down car.


This will annoy those that want to save the envionment and all that but the truth is there are ten times more cars on the roads these days and for some roads, such as the M25 we should really have an extra few lanes.
Look at how many they have in the U.S. That seems to work.
That's just it. Giving people more roads actually seems to make traffic worse. I realise that seems backward, but there have been studies that show if you give people more roads, they just buy more cars.

The best solution is to give people a cheap alternative to using their own cars, such as a well thought-out, quick, reliable and cheap public transport system. That won't happen though. Too many of the government's donors will lose money.
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Old 09-04-2019, 19:59   #22
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

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Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
They are said to be dangerous because people end up getting shunted on them, which could be alleviated by clamping down on those stopping for non emergencies.

Even with the fact that some people can still end up being shunted, I think that this is the lesser of two evils. If someone is on the motorway and has e.g. a heart attack, a hard shoulder (despite there being a chance of being shuntered) is still safer than remaining on the motorway for everyone concerned.

If there had been incidents of the fire service dropping people whilst rescuing them from burning buildings, it would be like saying that they will no longer rescue them because it's unsafe!

I suspect that the use of terminology like 'dangerous' and 'digital motorway are spin to make it sound like an improvement that they are being taken away.

---------- Post added at 16:45 ---------- Previous post was at 16:42 ----------



It's not, this has been going on for some time and the article concerns a further 400 miles of hard shoulder that is to be removed.

Are you a driver? If so, what do you think about this?
What about dual carriage ways? Those don't have a hard shoulder and we cope on those roads.
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Old 10-04-2019, 02:34   #23
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Mythica View Post
What about dual carriage ways? Those don't have a hard shoulder and we cope on those roads.
Exactly what I was thinking.
We dont have "hard shoulders" on any other roads, so why is removing them from motorways such a big issue. They are basically a wasted lane.
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Old 10-04-2019, 08:20   #24
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Mythica View Post
What about dual carriage ways? Those don't have a hard shoulder and we cope on those roads.
Good point. The speed limit is the same as well.
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Old 10-04-2019, 08:21   #25
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Paul M View Post
Exactly what I was thinking.
We dont have "hard shoulders" on any other roads, so why is removing them from motorways such a big issue. They are basically a wasted lane.


Traffic on motorways are often faster than other roads.
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Old 10-04-2019, 08:28   #26
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post

That's just it. Giving people more roads actually seems to make traffic worse. I realise that seems backward, but there have been studies that show if you give people more roads, they just buy more cars.

The best solution is to give people a cheap alternative to using their own cars, such as a well thought-out, quick, reliable and cheap public transport system. That won't happen though. Too many of the government's donors will lose money.
Easier said than done. Not only do the railways need improving, but we also need a well thought out, comprehensive bus and coach route system, controlled by local authorities with tenders offered for the various routes with the frequency of services set by the relevant councils.

It would also require much lower fares, so the whole thing would cost a small fortune. I can't see any government doing what is required because all political parties seem to be hell bent on giving away the money that could be used for a project like this in foreign aid.

In the meantime, fumes and congestion continue to increase, requiring more roads and motorways to be improved or built....

We need a root and branch review of how we spend our money, in my opinion.
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Old 10-04-2019, 08:33   #27
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Ken W View Post
Traffic on motorways are often faster than other roads.
And the volume of traffic is much greater on motorways.
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Old 10-04-2019, 08:42   #28
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

I don't have statistics to hand so I am open to correction, but I was under the impression that accidents were much lower on motorways than on other 'fast' roads, possibly because of the hard shoulders.
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:34   #29
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

I guess that they thought they'd put them on motorways because of the greater risks involved with the higher speeds.
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:42   #30
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Re: 400 more miles of the hard shoulder to be removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken W View Post
Traffic on motorways are often faster than other roads.
Plenty of dual carriageways are 70mph.

---------- Post added at 08:38 ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone View Post
And the volume of traffic is much greater on motorways.
Depends on what day and time you are talking.

---------- Post added at 08:39 ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
I guess that they thought they'd put them on motorways because of the greater risks involved with the higher speeds.
70mph is the highest you can go on both roads.

---------- Post added at 08:42 ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by oliver1948uk View Post
I don't have statistics to hand so I am open to correction, but I was under the impression that accidents were much lower on motorways than on other 'fast' roads, possibly because of the hard shoulders.
Couldn't tell you but in my opinion, the biggest problem we have on UK roads is people don't know how to drive properly.
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