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Windrush generation
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Old 18-04-2018, 21:18   #31
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 View Post
Correct me if I'm just being thick here but...

The Windrush immigrants were invited over here to work therefore they would have been issued a National Insurance number which is traceable the same with tax records.

Add to that any spouse/child who sought medical services would a medical record linked to a medical number issued.

What am I missing???
It’s not about NI Numbers, it’s about eligibility to be employed - when you apply for jobs nowadays, they all have to check you have the right to work in this country, for instance by being a UK citizen, and you have to provide a passport (which gets photocopied when you go for an interview).

If you haven’t got a passport, that rules you out.

https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work
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Old 18-04-2018, 21:25   #32
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
It’s not about NI Numbers, it’s about eligibility to be employed - when you apply for jobs nowadays, they all have to check you have the right to work in this country, for instance by being a UK citizen, and you have to provide a passport (which gets photocopied when you go for an interview).

If you haven’t got a passport, that rules you out.

https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work
I know that is the case now but that is immaterial to the subject of the thread.

NINo-Tax record-Medical no, all checkable and traceable from the 1950's.
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Old 18-04-2018, 21:35   #33
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
It’s not about NI Numbers, it’s about eligibility to be employed - when you apply for jobs nowadays, they all have to check you have the right to work in this country, for instance by being a UK citizen, and you have to provide a passport (which gets photocopied when you go for an interview).

If you haven’t got a passport, that rules you out.

https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work
A passport isn't a requirement for UK citizens who can prove their citizenship in other ways.
Quote:
British citizens may also demonstrate their permission to work through their full UK birth or adoption certificate which includes the name(s) of at least one of their parents or adoptive parents, together with an official document giving their permanent National Insurance number and their name issued by a Government agency or a previous employer.
Quote:
if 2 documents give different names, the applicant has supporting documents showing why they’re different, eg a marriage certificate or divorce decree
I might struggle with that bit, as my birth certificate has a different surname. My parents divorced and my mother remarried and I took my stepfather's surname. Luckily my mother arranged an official change of surname by deed poll, when I was 18.
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Old 19-04-2018, 04:46   #34
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Re: Windrush generation

It wouldn't have been too difficult to change your name anyway to fit any documents (and then back again if desired).

All perfectly legal unless done for fraudulent purposes:

https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-...ith-the-courts
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Old 19-04-2018, 05:43   #35
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
It wouldn't have been too difficult to change your name anyway to fit any documents (and then back again if desired).

All perfectly legal unless done for fraudulent purposes:

https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-...ith-the-courts
But how many people take that official step? I wouldn't have unless my mother had taken me to the commissioners of oaths office. If I hadn't done it by deed poll, I would've had no real problems until these stricter rules.

---------- Post added at 04:43 ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 ----------

All the landing cards did was provide an INITIAL date of arrival. Nothing more. No proof of identity or right of residence. That comes from elsewhere, as it does for EVERYBODY.
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Old 19-04-2018, 07:40   #36
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Well, there's a turnup for the books! According to BBC News, at a heated exchange at PM's Questions, Theresa May responded that the destruction of the Windrush records took place under Labour's watch in 2009.

I bet JC wishes he had never asked! Egg on face for Lammy, too, after his outburst in the House of Commons!

So much for 'caring' Labour. It's now confirmed by the man himself that it was Labour that had proved to be 'callous and incompetent'!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43806710
Both were 'callous and incompetent' IMO.

Quote:
Separately, an effort by May to blame Labour for a controversial decision to destroy landing card slips recording people’s arrival dates rebounded after it emerged that one of the decisions to implement the policy took place in 2010, when she was home secretary.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...lbert-thompson
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Old 19-04-2018, 08:10   #37
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone View Post
Both were 'callous and incompetent' IMO.



https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...lbert-thompson
Quote:
They had been stored in a basement for decades but Downing Street says the UK Border Agency approved a business case in June 2009 to dispose of paper records, including the cards.
The decision to destroy the cards themselves was taken in October 2010, after the coalition came to power. Mrs May was not involved in the decision, which was taken at official level, said No 10.
Either way the cards would have been destroyed if Labour had been elected in 2010.

All the cards did was provide a date. They still needed to provide the same other info that the rest of us have to provide.
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Old 19-04-2018, 09:20   #38
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
The onus is on individuals to prove they were resident in the UK before 1 January 1973, the date the 1971 Immigration Act came into force. However, a key clause from 1999 legislation, which had provided longstanding Commonwealth residents with protection from enforced removal, was deleted from the 2014 Immigration Act. The government did not announce the removal of this clause, nor did it consult on the potential ramifications.


THIS is the bigger problem, nevermind LAB & CON squabbling about who did what. THIS is the issue, and it's a worrying one,. it shows a lack of due diligence and transparency on all sides.

With legislation like that slipping in, we're all farked. Where else has stuff been quietly erased...
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Old 19-04-2018, 09:47   #39
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Re: Windrush generation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43818860

Quote:
A former head of the civil service has called for an investigation into who authorised the destruction of thousands of landing cards of Windrush migrants.

Lord Kerslake told BBC Newsnight the Borders Agency was effectively part of the civil service and took its advice from ministers.

Theresa May has said the decision was taken under Labour in 2009.

But Labour has disputed this, saying the Home Office had earlier said the decision was taken in 2010.
Quote:
Landing cards were filled in by Commonwealth citizens arriving from the West Indies and elsewhere, and were used by officials to help subsequent generations prove they had a right to remain in the UK.

They had been stored in a basement for decades but Downing Street says the UK Border Agency approved a business case in June 2009 to dispose of paper records, including the cards.

The decision to destroy the cards themselves was taken in October 2010, after the coalition came to power. Mrs May was not involved in the decision, which was taken at official level, said No 10.
Not so clear cut as to responsibility..
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Old 19-04-2018, 10:11   #40
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone View Post
Quote:
The onus is on individuals to prove they were resident in the UK before 1 January 1973, the date the 1971 Immigration Act came into force. However, a key clause from 1999 legislation, which had provided longstanding Commonwealth residents with protection from enforced removal, was deleted from the 2014 Immigration Act. The government did not announce the removal of this clause, nor did it consult on the potential ramifications.

THIS is the bigger problem, nevermind LAB & CON squabbling about who did what. THIS is the issue, and it's a worrying one,. it shows a lack of due diligence and transparency on all sides.

With legislation like that slipping in, we're all farked. Where else has stuff been quietly erased...
So the changes only affected whether you could be deported if you couldn't prove a right to remain, not a right to NHS care, jobs, housing etc. All of those issues would remain without any of the 1999 changes(whatever they were). Is the change the one in the 1999 act that refers people NOT being a British Citizen could be deported to in 2014 just people of whatever citizenship, who hadn't got a right to remain? The Landing cards could confer automatic British Citizenship based on the 1971 act.

Last edited by nomadking; 19-04-2018 at 10:29.
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Old 19-04-2018, 10:28   #41
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone View Post
Quote:
The onus is on individuals to prove they were resident in the UK before 1 January 1973, the date the 1971 Immigration Act came into force. However, a key clause from 1999 legislation, which had provided longstanding Commonwealth residents with protection from enforced removal, was deleted from the 2014 Immigration Act. The government did not announce the removal of this clause, nor did it consult on the potential ramifications.


THIS is the bigger problem, nevermind LAB & CON squabbling about who did what. THIS is the issue, and it's a worrying one,. it shows a lack of due diligence and transparency on all sides.

With legislation like that slipping in, we're all farked. Where else has stuff been quietly erased...
It seems like there are two problems with the 2014 immigration act.

One of those was the removal of protection for commonwealth citizens which it seems was already identified as an issue back in 1999.

But it's also this 'hostile environment' act which turns everyone into immigration police. This is less of a problem for clearly illegal immigrants but it turns out there is another category of people for whom the answer to their legal status is complicated. These are people who the act wasn't intended to target, who no-one has a problem with, but nonetheless do not have the full legal status and don't have the documentation required. The changes, as well as removing their protection, has forced every state entity, landlords and employers to flag them up and so they find themselves out of work, unable to access healthcare and even at risk of deportation!

It's hard to prove nationality especially if you don't have a United States style law where being born in the country makes you a national of it automatically.

---------- Post added at 09:28 ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
So the changes only affected whether you could be deported if you couldn't prove a right to remain, not a right to NHS care, jobs, housing etc. All of those issues would remain without any of the 1999 changes(whatever they were).
The 2014 act is what made these people need to get documentation without respect for long term residency i.e windrush.

Basically these people went around their entire lives thinking, rightly, they were here legally. In 2014 not only was this assumption overturned but also caught them in a situation where the NHS, landlords, employers and more would demand they prove something they have heithro not been required to prove and set very high standards to do so.

Last edited by Damien; 19-04-2018 at 10:41.
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Old 19-04-2018, 10:31   #42
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Re: Windrush generation

You can blame politicians but we elect them and their policies. Seems to be the result of the general xenophobia in the British public
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Old 19-04-2018, 10:50   #43
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
It seems like there are two problems with the 2014 immigration act.

One of those was the removal of protection for commonwealth citizens which it seems was already identified as an issue back in 1999.

But it's also this 'hostile environment' act which turns everyone into immigration police. This is less of a problem for clearly illegal immigrants but it turns out there is another category of people for whom the answer to their legal status is complicated. These are people who the act wasn't intended to target, who no-one has a problem with, but nonetheless do not have the full legal status and don't have the documentation required. The changes, as well as removing their protection, has forced every state entity, landlords and employers to flag them up and so they find themselves out of work, unable to access healthcare and even at risk of deportation!

It's hard to prove nationality especially if you don't have a United States style law where being born in the country makes you a national of it automatically.

---------- Post added at 09:28 ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 ----------



The 2014 act is what made these people need to get documentation without respect for long term residency i.e windrush.

Basically these people went around their entire lives thinking, rightly, they were here legally. In 2014 not only was this assumption overturned but also caught them in a situation where the NHS, landlords, employers and more would demand they prove something they have heithro not been required to prove and set very high standards to do so.
1996 Asylum and Immigration Act
Quote:
8 Restrictions on employment.
(1)Subject to subsection (2) below, if any person (“the employer”) employs a person subject to immigration control (“the employee”) who has attained the age of 16, the employer shall be guilty of an offence if—
(a)the employee has not been granted leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom; or
(b)the employee’s leave is not valid and subsisting, or is subject to a condition precluding him from taking up the employment,
and (in either case) the employee does not satisfy such conditions as may be specified in an order made by the Secretary of State.
Technically employment and other restrictions were there in 1996, if not before. They needed to be able to prove a "right to remain" back then.

If the NHS, landlords, employers, etc didn't do the checks everybody would have to wait for the results of a central government check. How many weeks/months would that take?
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Old 19-04-2018, 12:44   #44
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
If the NHS, landlords, employers, etc didn't do the checks everybody would have to wait for the results of a central government check. How many weeks/months would that take?
Surely it should be about as long as it takes someone to check my Driving Licence for points or disqualifications i.e. no time at all.
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Old 19-04-2018, 12:48   #45
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Re: Windrush generation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr View Post
Surely it should be about as long as it takes someone to check my Driving Licence for points or disqualifications i.e. no time at all.
So do the databases exist? Or is it mainly down to physical paperwork, eg cards in a basement. Then there is the time it takes to send and receive letters and for anything to be processed.
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