Brexit

[Angua]

Originally Posted by jfman

Well, that’s true. However, that’s not a reason to be despondent about the situation. Remain needs to convince just 1 in 17 leave voters to switch sides, and they’re going to come from the “soft” side as opposed to the ideologues.

In fact I’m convinced that change has already happened so it’s just down to Parliament who are going a grand job at fudging Brexit for now.

My big fear is how people will vote for Farage and his ilk, just to stick it to the government. Then we will be stuck having to pay for poor attending MEPs and their pensions.

Odd how Farage calls for an insurance based Health care system and one of his main backers sells insurance. Let alone all the hidden £499 donations the the Brexit Party paid via PayPal which hides the real source of the money.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

I think you've just summed up the intransigence of some on the leave side quite well - play down the risks as 'potential' but no such uncertainty about the benefits. In 2016 I voted knowing the risks and potential benefits and I'm getting pretty fed up being grouped with the hard liners. I think many people had their own reasons for voting the way they did which are not the same as yours. To use your phrase from above - I know that's hard to believe but it's true.

Well said However, this does not fit the narrative so your particular interpretation will be ignored.

We are now getting the new spin on the narrative where "most Leavers want a No Deal". Patently untrue but this will be repeated and repeated. The lesson learned from 2016 is that if you repeat an untruth often enough, it becomes "true" and people get tricked into accepting it as a "fact".

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

BREAKING: The Brexit Party sky rockets and trounces Labour in latest voting intentions in You Gov poll:

European Parliament voting intention:

BREX: 27%
LAB: 22%
CON: 15%
GRN: 10%
LDEM: 9%
UKIP: 7%
CHUK: 6%

via @YouGov, 15 - 16 Apr

I'm going to start a party called FREE BEER. It would trounce the BREXIT party .

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mr K

I'm going to start a party called FREE BEER. It would trounce the BREXIT party .

Inspired by this?

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Inspired by this?

No, just inspired by beer Andrew

You could say that support for Brexit has fallen from 52% to 27%, but I know Mick doesn't like polls

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Hugh

But the arguments you made ‘informed choices" on were sub-optimal interpretations of actuality (lies).

“The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.”

We were told we would replicate, or improve, all the Trade Deals the E.U. has

“The free trade agreement we will have to do should be one of the easiest in human history,”

“There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market”

"Post Brexit a UK-German deal would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else

"Turkey joining the EU in the near future, bringing 77 million Turks exercising their free movement"

The Vote Leave promise of a free trade area "stretching from Iceland to Turkey"

David Davis, said that Britain would negotiate individual trade deals with other EU countries. EU member states cannot negotiate individual trade deals with outside countries and instead do so as a bloc of 28.

Not only were such choices based on lies such as those you list above, but the agenda was also supported by faked film clips.

Revealed: How Leave.EU faked migrant footage
An investigation by Channel 4 News also reveals how Arron Banks’ pro-Brexit group appears to have staged photos of migrants attacking women in London

https://www.channel4.com/news/reveal...igrant-footage

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

But the arguments you made ‘informed choices" on were sub-optimal interpretations of actuality (lies).

“The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.”

We were told we would replicate, or improve, all the Trade Deals the E.U. has

“The free trade agreement we will have to do should be one of the easiest in human history,”

“There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market”

"Post Brexit a UK-German deal would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else"

"Turkey joining the EU in the near future, bringing 77 million Turks exercising their free movement"

The Vote Leave promise of a free trade area "stretching from Iceland to Turkey"

David Davis, said that Britain would negotiate individual trade deals with other EU countries. EU member states cannot negotiate individual trade deals with outside countries and instead do so as a bloc of 28.

In the interests of balance, here are some of the porkies the remainers are trying to have us believe....

https://brexitcentral.com/remainers-...g-litany-lies/

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by jfman

With the best will in the world remain isn’t going to win the argument by making the case for rich kids to get a jolly abroad while studying. Whether this is the reality or not it’s the perception. Essentially you are trying to then win two arguments, in favour of Erasmus which people who voted leave are less likely to participate in and then remain.

Ha, maybe I was doing it wrong with the two Erasmus students I supervised way back when I worked in academia (one from L'Universite Paris-Sud and one from University of Coimbra) I worked them hard! No jolly on my watch...

My first degree had work placements so I didn't go for Erasmus but would have if I did a standard degree. Certainly wasn't a rich kid however

[denphone]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

In the interests of balance, here are some of the porkies the remainers are trying to have us believe....

https://brexitcentral.com/remainers-...g-litany-lies/

It would be nice if we had a independent body with no allegiance to either side that could separate the lies from the truth rather then the perpetual lies that both sides seem to practice in with their biased media mouthpieces.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by denphone

It would be nice if we had a independent body with no allegiance to either side that could separate the lies from the truth rather then the perpetual lies that both sides seem to practice in with their biased media mouthpieces.

What worries me is that lies just seem to be accepted now by the public as 'part of the game'.

C4 revealed last night that Banks paid for a faked a video of migrant crossings over the channel. His boat went to Folkestone and back, and the 'migrants' were very British ! Those involved didn't particularly deny or were embrassed by it.

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

I think you've just summed up the intransigence of some on the leave side quite well - play down the risks as 'potential' but no such uncertainty about the benefits. In 2016 I voted knowing the risks and potential benefits and I'm getting pretty fed up being grouped with the hard liners. I think many people had their own reasons for voting the way they did which are not the same as yours. To use your phrase from above - I know that's hard to believe but it's true.

Re my comment the other day, the intransigence in this debate, on this forum at least, is evidenced to a great extent by people’s determination to read whatever they want/expect to read into any given text.

The natural reading of “potential risks and benefits” is that the qualifying adjective, “potential”, applies to both the abstract nouns, “risks” and “benefits”. I could have written “potential risks and potential benefits” but that would have been needlessly clumsy.

That you read it as only applying to the word that you perceive as attacking your position, and not applying to the word that you perceive as a defence of mine, says more about your mind set than it does anything else.

[tweetiepooh]

"You mean," said Lucy rather faintly, "that it would have turned out all right – somehow? But how? Please, Aslan! Am I not to know?"
"To know what would have happened, child?" said Aslan. "No. Nobody is ever told that."
"Oh dear," said Lucy.
"But anyone can find out what will happen," said Aslan.

C S Lewis - Prince Caspian

This is the problem, and know one knows what will happen, we can only move on from where we are and "take the adventure Aslan sends us".

We can't follow more that one path. All each side can do is state what they think will be the outcome good or bad.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

In the interests of balance, here are some of the porkies the remainers are trying to have us believe....

https://brexitcentral.com/remainers-...g-litany-lies/

You're not interested in balance, you're interested in trying to excuse them on the basis the other side were at it to but it doesn't excuse anyone, it makes the whole thing worse and in turn makes something of a mockery of the democracy some people seem so desperate to defend

[jfman]

And in elections that matter:

Westminster Voting Intention

LAB: 33% (+1)
CON: 23% (-9)
BXP: 14% (+14)

Via @ComRes,
Changes w/ 5-7 Apr.

Lowest CON vote share in a WM VI poll since 1997...

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You're not interested in balance, you're interested in trying to excuse them on the basis the other side were at it to but it doesn't excuse anyone, it makes the whole thing worse and in turn makes something of a mockery of the democracy some people seem so desperate to defend

Oh, so 'leavers lies' should be taken into account, but not 'remainers lies'. Is that your definition of balance?