[Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Chris

If you produce hydrogen by electrolysis of water, first of all you can do it with excess electricity production from the grid, given the massive increase in offshore wind that’s being proposed. If you split water into H and O2 then all your fuel cell does is recombine it. There is no net increase in water in the environment because you’re just putting back what you took out. Any chemical impurities can be filtered or chemically altered in the vehicle exhaust system just as is the case now.

Besides all this, there’s no need to worry so much about lithium because we’re not very far away from a practical lithium-sulphur battery that has the potential to double EV range - or half the size of the battery required.

I think we’re going to see a future of mixed approaches to providing electric power to vehicles. There’s room in it for hydrogen and batteries.

And where does the bulk of Sulphur come from? Oil refineries. Eg Saudi Arabia produces 6.6m tonnes/year.

Originally Posted by nomadking

And where does the bulk of Sulphur come from? Oil refineries. Eg Saudi Arabia produces 6.6m tonnes/year.

Our requirement for petrochemical products isn’t going away any time soon, and nothing announced here today has suggested otherwise. What’s your point?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Chris

Our requirement for petrochemical products isn’t going away any time soon, and nothing announced here today has suggested otherwise. What’s your point?

1) The oil refineries would still have to be producing petrochemicals.
2) The oil is going to run out.
Still not addressing the shortages of Lithium, Boron, Neodymium etc.

Originally Posted by nomadking

1) The oil refineries would still have to be producing petrochemicals.
2) The oil is going to run out.
Still not addressing the shortages of Lithium, Boron, Neodymium etc.

1. Not a major problem, if
2. We’re not burning most of it in internal combustion engines. In any case
2b. The oil isn’t going to run out - environmentalists told us 40 years ago that it would all be gone by now. Guess what ... known reserves are still at least as healthy now as they were then. Technology has improved, we’ve found oil in more places and we can extract it from wells previously unreachable.

As I said earlier, a chemically stable lithium sulphur battery has the potential to have twice the capacity of a lithium ion battery of the same physical size. So (for example) a Tesla model S could either double its range to around 600 miles, or reduce its battery size (and therefore lithium requirement) by 50%. That’s a very significant saving.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by nomadking

1)
2) The oil is going to run out.
.

Is it?

[tweetiepooh]

I think one issue is that we haven't moved where we use things in the right place. We should have moved more to reusable/nuclear to generate electricity and leaving more oil for chemicals and small units where replacement is harder.
At the same time we do need the work on replacing the internal combustion engine but given that each change of energy from one form to another results in a loss of energy is generate -> step up -> transmit -> step down -> step down -> charge battery more efficient than dig up -> crack -> carry -> refuel.
At the moment it takes too long to charge electric for too few miles and hydrogen distribution is going to take time to build up, especially in rural and smaller towns.

Was thinking about petrol stations and run through. Now actual is out to make maths easy.
20 pump station
10 refuels each per hour
200 refuels an hour

To get the same through put for electric, how many points would you need? What do people do for that extra time waiting? What about those waiting for a point?

Some new houses near me have charging points for cars built into house but already mentioned about those in towns without dedicated parking space?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Chris

1. Not a major problem, if
2. We’re not burning most of it in internal combustion engines. In any case
2b. The oil isn’t going to run out - environmentalists told us 40 years ago that it would all be gone by now. Guess what ... known reserves are still at least as healthy now as they were then. Technology has improved, we’ve found oil in more places and we can extract it from wells previously unreachable.

As I said earlier, a chemically stable lithium sulphur battery has the potential to have twice the capacity of a lithium ion battery of the same physical size. So (for example) a Tesla model S could either double its range to around 600 miles, or reduce its battery size (and therefore lithium requirement) by 50%. That’s a very significant saving.

So what are we going to do with the oil left over? They're not going to process the oil just to extract sulphur. Oil from certain areas isn't suitable for making plastics, eg Saudi Arabia with too much sand in it.
Increased capacity of a battery will be used for just that, to increase distance, not to reduce it in size. Even if they did, there still isn't enough Lithium available. Still no mention of all the other metals and materials needed, that are in short supply from limited locations.

[pip08456]

Oil is not the only source of sulphur, after all it's the 5th most common element of earth. It is only because of being a byproduct of oil production that oil is the highest source.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Oil is not the only source of sulphur, after all it's the 5th most common element of earth. It is only because of being a byproduct of oil production that oil is the highest source.

So where are you going to source it from instead? Have you seen how they collect from around volcanos? Health and safety has little to do with it.
Link

Sulphur occurs naturally in the environment and is the thirteenth most abundant element in the earth's crust. It can be mined in its elemental form, though this production has reduced significantly in recent years. Since early in the 20th Century, the Frasch process has been used as a method to extract sulphur from underground deposits, when it displaced traditional mining principally in Sicily. Most of the world's sulphur was obtained this way until the late 20th century, when sulphur's recovery from petroleum and gas sources (recovered sulphur) became more commonplace. As of 2011, the only operating Frasch mines worldwide are in Poland and since 2010 in Mexico. The last mine operating in the United States closed in 2000. A Frasch mine in Iraq closed in 2003.

Still no mention of the shortfall in Lithium, Neodymium, Boron, etc.
Doesn't matter one little bit how easy to make and efficient the batteries are, you still need efficient electric motors.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So where are you going to source it from instead? Have you seen how they collect from around volcanos? Health and safety has little to do with it.
Link

Still no mention of the shortfall in Lithium, Neodymium, Boron, etc.
Doesn't matter one little bit how easy to make and efficient the batteries are, you still need efficient electric motors.

Now that's a hard one... er, perhaps re-open the mines that closed due to the abundance of sulphur produced by the oil industry?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Now that's a hard one... er, perhaps re-open the mines that closed due to the abundance of sulphur produced by the oil industry?

You're still not addressing the shortages of Lithium, Neodymium, Boron, etc, etc, etc.

Throughout the 20th century this procedure produced elemental sulfur that required no further purification. Due to a limited number of such sulfur deposits and the high cost of working them, this process for mining sulfur has not been employed in a major way anywhere in the world since 2002

The conditions in Sicilian sulfur mines were horrific, prompting Booker T. Washington to write "I am not prepared just now to say to what extent I believe in a physical hell in the next world, but a sulphur mine in Sicily is about the nearest thing to hell that I expect to see in this life."
...
Sulfur is still mined from surface deposits in poorer nations with volcanoes, such as Indonesia, and worker conditions have not improved much since Booker T. Washington's days.

Originally Posted by nomadking

You're still not addressing the shortages of Lithium, Neodymium, Boron, etc, etc, etc.

This would be because you haven’t made a case to address.

Hint: one-line rhetorical questions are not a case.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

This would be because you haven’t made a case to address.

Hint: one-line rhetorical questions are not a case.

[Mad Max]

Ah well, the days are numbered for the petrol-driven car, no more will we hear that powerful roar of a 5 litre, 600 Bhp beast, such a shame IMO.

Originally Posted by Chris

This would be because you haven’t made a case to address.

Hint: one-line rhetorical questions are not a case.

Tut tut, you can't squirm out of it that easily.

There is a need for loads more Lithium, Neodymium, Cobalt.
Rare earth elements are not as rare as the name implies, but there are very few locations that mine them, so we are somewhat at the mercy of those countries (for example, 70% of the worlds Cobalt comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo).

Originally Posted by 1andrew1