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The state benefits system mega-thread.
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Old 21-11-2019, 22:51   #2491
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
"Not usually among them" in your armchair opinion given you are simply a recipient of DWP benefits, not a qualified medical professional, and are simply ideologically backing the Conservatives.
The "Not usually amongst them" bit, is simply because I don't want to traipse through the whole thread checking every single example so that I can claim "X% are not amongst them". I have given specific examples of where a claim(not the ESA/PIP claim referred to) made within a post, is untrue, and why it's untrue.
Eg Link

Quote:
Michael was diagnosed with a brain tumour on the right side of his head while on holiday in Canada in July.
But despite being told by doctors he has just nine months to live and undergoing daily radiotherapy, DWP bureaucrats say he isn’t eligible for Universal Credit or Employment and Support Allowance (ESA).
The TRUTH being:-
Quote:
“We thought I was getting Universal Credit but at the Job Centre Plus in Johnstone they told me I wasn’t eligible because my partner Terry works part-time.

...
and the application is decided on overall household income.
Furthermore:-
Quote:
The department also says it has terminal illness special rules and anyone subject to it can have their work-related requirements waived.
It added on Thursday that it had reviewed the case and Mr McClelland had been awarded the enhanced level of the mobility allowance.
What is wrong about pointing out the truth?
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Old 21-11-2019, 22:57   #2492
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
The "Not usually amongst them" bit, is simply because I don't want to traipse through the whole thread checking every single example so that I can claim "X% are not amongst them". I have given specific examples of where a claim(not the ESA/PIP claim referred to) made within a post, is untrue, and why it's untrue.
Eg Link


The TRUTH being:-

Furthermore:-
What is wrong about pointing out the truth?
You haven’t pointed out the truth though, all too often you are offering another mere subjective opinion, similar in vain to the “man in the pub” in the absence of material facts about the individuals involved or the claims made.

It’s total bull from you time and again. Anything to depend the DWP when against any measure going their performance in administering benefits is atrocious and getting worse. A Government department failing to administer laws it creates is nothing short of scandalous and for any supposedly “neutral” person to clutch at straws to defend them is, frankly, despicable.
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Old 21-11-2019, 23:16   #2493
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

DWP doesn’t create the laws they administer- Parliament does.
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Old 21-11-2019, 23:31   #2494
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
DWP doesn’t create the laws they administer- Parliament does.
The secondary legislation that covers much of benefit rules/regulations would be developed and impact assessed by DWP policy officials after being given a steer by Ministers/special advisers/budget etc. While Parliament has to approve (affirmative procedure) or at least not object (negative procedure), the Department and it’s lawyers are very much responsible for their creation.

Last edited by jfman; 21-11-2019 at 23:34.
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Old 22-11-2019, 00:13   #2495
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
DWP doesn’t create the laws they administer- Parliament does.
Higher court decisions and even some Upper Tribunals decisions(ie Reported decisions) do amend the law.
DWP Decision Makers' Guide.
Quote:
Decisions given by other courts
01470 In making decisions, DMs should take account of
1.their own independent conclusions and
2.decisions of appellate authorities including reported UT decisions.
01471 The DM is bound by decisions of the appellate authorities (see DMG 01475) on questions which are identical to those they have to decide.
Appellate Authorities
01474 The appellate authorities are
1.the UT and
2.the higher courts.
That is why looking at Upper Tribunals decisions can be informative when dealing with benefit issues.
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Old 22-11-2019, 00:27   #2496
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Higher court decisions and even some Upper Tribunals decisions(ie Reported decisions) do amend the law.
DWP Decision Makers' Guide.
That is why looking at Upper Tribunals decisions can be informative when dealing with benefit issues.
No they don’t. No court can amend statute law - not even the Supreme Court. Courts create precedent in case law, but this is not amending law, it is creating law in a previously grey or undefined area.
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Old 22-11-2019, 00:39   #2497
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
You haven’t pointed out the truth though, all too often you are offering another mere subjective opinion, similar in vain to the “man in the pub” in the absence of material facts about the individuals involved or the claims made.

It’s total bull from you time and again. Anything to depend the DWP when against any measure going their performance in administering benefits is atrocious and getting worse. A Government department failing to administer laws it creates is nothing short of scandalous and for any supposedly “neutral” person to clutch at straws to defend them is, frankly, despicable.
I point out the facts that are mentioned in the SAME article about the individual. How is that subjective opinion? Being "subjective" and not being fully aware of the claimants situation works both ways. For the most part, having medical condition X doesn't automatically mean that you are eligible for benefits. In that example that was used, the claim is that he was turned down for ESA. The claim never got that far. The bit in the article that initially raised my suspicions was that he was diagnosed in July, but the suggestion was that an assessment and decision had been made a few months later. That timescale was unlikely, and sure enough the reason he was "turned down", was the income of his partner, NOT his health or lack of it. No DWP decision on ESA had really been made.
EG Man alleged by man sitting next to somebody else(ie "man in the pub" situation) to have died after having been found "fit for work", HADN'T been found "fit for work". That NOT subjective, that is FACT.

Where have the Government dept failed to administer laws, expect where AFTER the fact somebody comes along and says the way something has been applied is suddenly illegal, when it wasn't before?

---------- Post added at 23:39 ---------- Previous post was at 23:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
No they don’t. No court can amend statute law - not even the Supreme Court. Courts create precedent in case law, but this is not amending law, it is creating law in a previously grey or undefined area.
They are not amending the law, but those decisions do change the rules and how they've been applied in the past. They effectively add amendments to the law. The DWP decision makers are meant to stick to those amendments. Their guidance supplies references to the base law as well as those amendments.


It is still beneficial to look at those other decisions in conjunction with the base law to get a fuller picture of how the decisions are meant to be arrived at.

Last edited by nomadking; 22-11-2019 at 00:47.
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Old 22-11-2019, 05:53   #2498
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Higher court decisions and even some Upper Tribunals decisions(ie Reported decisions) do amend the law.
DWP Decision Makers' Guide.
That is why looking at Upper Tribunals decisions can be informative when dealing with benefit issues.
They don't amend the law. They clarify interpretation of the law.
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Old 22-11-2019, 09:39   #2499
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
They don't amend the law. They clarify interpretation of the law.
I think most people would think there is little difference between the two.
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:53   #2500
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy View Post
I think most people would think there is little difference between the two.
I would generally agree - however my starting point was that the DWP policy officials develop these regulations and get them wrong. Then DWP operational staff, in conjunction with the third party assessors, get their application wrong resulting in the massive amounts of appeals being lost.
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:07   #2501
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I would generally agree - however my starting point was that the DWP policy officials develop these regulations and get them wrong. Then DWP operational staff, in conjunction with the third party assessors, get their application wrong resulting in the massive amounts of appeals being lost.
It's also important to understand the numbers of appeals against numbers of claims, which a lot of reports seem to miss out.

Quote:
It said of 3.3 million PIP decisions taken from 2013 to 2019, only 5% were overturned at appeal, while of 4.4 million ESA decisions made between 2014 and 2019, only 4% were overturned at appeal.

A spokesman said: "We are committed to ensuring people get the support they are entitled to and spend £55bn a year supporting disabled people and those with health conditions."

The Department for Communities in Northern Ireland said about 10% of all of the PIP decisions it handled were appealed, with about 2.5% of the overall number of cases successful.
I would ask anyone criticising the DWP staff undertaking these assessments to try and have a conversation with the Decision Makers (off duty, obvs.) - it is a soul destroying job, which they (on the whole) try to carry out to the best of their abilities; my wife comes home emotionally drained every day, having read and processed many heart-rending applications. Strangely enough, the DWP staff don't get pleasure out of turning down applications, but they have to adhere to the criteria, and, like many others in other jobs, some make mistakes.

I've convinced my wife to retire early (in May next year instead of November) due to the emotional toll the job is putting on her.
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:16   #2502
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

l agree with much of what Hugh says as the DWP staff must adhere to the criteria rules set out for them , no ifs , no buts and no maybes.

One thing the DWP certainly should not of done is outsource the medical assessments process to private outsourcing companies IMO.
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Old 22-11-2019, 12:12   #2503
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

I have just been notified that I have a capability assent for work for my ESA claim. This should be fun!
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Old 22-11-2019, 12:26   #2504
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

Good luck Stephen.
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Old 22-11-2019, 12:31   #2505
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
l agree with much of what Hugh says as the DWP staff must adhere to the criteria rules set out for them , no ifs , no buts and no maybes.

One thing the DWP certainly should not of done is outsource the medical assessments process to private outsourcing companies IMO.
I'm certainly not criticising the staff who make the decisions themselves. They do so according to the training given (which is much shorter than it used to be) and have a limited amount of independence in their role with increasing targets - "expectations" or get threatened with performance management procedures. The Public and Commercial Services union website can be quite enlightening.
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