Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Hugh

It's probably more about the floods of vituperation, name-calling, and straw-man arguments about what those who don't agree with Brexit might say, make it difficult to have a rational discussion, when it appears that some people just want to argue...

I think there's plenty of evidence as to what the usual suspects I referred to here say and think about Brexit, hence my post and others like it making the point that they're quick to cite what they claim are negative impacts of Brexit (even when they're not, as in the case of Nestle) but not so quick to accept anything else.

I may be wrong but I don't think a single Brexiteer here has claimed leaving the EU will be easy, simple, without risks or costs and rational remainers will accept that staying in is far from risk free I'm sure. The irrational ones who're not interested in debate are, IMHO, those who refuse to do that.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Hugh

It's probably more about the floods of vituperation, name-calling, and straw-man arguments about what those who don't agree with Brexit might say, make it difficult to have a rational discussion, when it appears that some people just want to argue...

Very true Hugh, but we carry on regardless ! It wouldn't given the Brexiters the 'usual suspects' to to have a go at after all.... It's a different opinion nothing more, wouldn't be much of a debate/forum otherwise.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Very true Hugh, but we carry on regardless ! It wouldn't given the Brexiters the 'usual suspects' to to have a go at after all.... It's a different opinion nothing more, wouldn't be much of a debate/forum otherwise.

This topic area is a bit underweight on Remainer contributions now that people like Ignitionet, martyh and ianch99 have left.

Originally Posted by Osem

The irrational ones who're not interested in debate are, IMHO, those who refuse to do that.

These are the ones who are at fault whose minds are still lapping behind and discussing if we should stay or leave, what they need to comprehend is, that boat has sailed, that debate is over.

Then there is the one person, and he know who he is, who continues to berate those who voted leave and treats them with unwarranted disdain, continues to say what a mistake we have made.

Let me make this clear, I will not have anybody tell me, I have made a mistake or tell me they are ashamed to be British, if you feel ashamed, then do so on your own. I did not regret voting leave on June 23rd 2016 and I still don't regret it.

---------- Post added at 19:40 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

This topic area is a bit underweight on Remainer contributions now that people like Ignitionet, martyh and ianch99 have left.

Nice try, but I'm sure martyh voted leave...as for ianch, I just saw on who's online he just sent you a PM.

[Mr K]

It's the personal abuse that what's wrong with this thread. Fair enough to disagree on the issues, but Brexiters seem to like adding a personal jibe. If that wasn't bad enough one of the worst offenders is a senior of the forum, who is less than even handed, he knows who he is

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

Nice try, but I'm sure martyh voted leave...as for ianch, I just saw on who's online he just sent you a PM.

Is it really appropriate to disclose who has sent who a PM? It's private or isn't it?

Originally Posted by Mr K

It's the personal abuse that what's wrong with this thread. Fair enough to disagree on the issues, but Brexiters seem to like adding a personal jibe. If that wasn't bad enough one of the worst offenders is a senior of the forum, who is less than even handed, he knows who he is

Tell me quick, dying to know who he is....

But on another note. I've had lots of crap from some of those who 1andrew1 has listed in his post above, who had a serious problem with seeing my name in red and thinking that because I'm an admin, I'm not entitled to any views or I should conform to not having any views at all. Not going to happen. If people don't like what I got to say, feel free to disagree and if people think they can force their views on me, they are not going to like me very much and by the way, the door is there.

If people think they are going to send me down Guilt Street by leaving, they are wrong, CF has been around a very long time, seen lots of people come and go (and come back under another guise). Like I said to one of those who 1andrew1 listed, I'm not here to make friends.

---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

Is it really appropriate to disclose who has sent who a PM? It's private or isn't it?

It probably is just as inappropriate to discussing who may no longer be a member.

Any way, we are way off topic. Back to it.

[1andrew1]

Is this a significant move or just sensible preparation now that the UK has invoked Article 50?

EU prepares for post-Brexit membership for united Ireland
European leaders are preparing to recognise the potential for a united Ireland” within the EU, confirming that Northern Ireland would seamlessly rejoin the bloc after Brexit in the event of a vote for Irish reunification.
In a step that may stoke concerns in Britain that Brexit could hasten the fragmentation of the UK, diplomats are planning to ask leaders of the EU’s 27 post-Brexit member countries to endorse the idea in a summit on Saturday.
It would allow the province to follow the example of German reunification in 1990 and reflect the terms of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, which ended decades of sectarian violence in Northern Ireland.
The agreement allows a referendum on reuniting Ireland where there is reason to believe a majority in the province is in favour.

Google the headline in bold or https://www.ft.com/content/f4c720b0-...b-5528796fe35c for full article.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

We (the leave voters) never claimed that this process would be painless

How much pain would you find acceptable, personally I felt it hard enough when we were in up until about two years ago in terms of wage stagnation so I've suffered enough, it's someone else's turn.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

'You're not LISTENING!'

Windy Miller snaps as she's told to 'STOP obstructing Brexit'

Appearing on Channel 4, Ms Miller locked horns with Jonathan Isaby, the editor of the website Brexit Central, as he said the campaigner was still in denial about the results of the June referendum.

Mr Isaby said: “I’m afraid people like Gina are in denial of the result because actually the majority of Remain voters now think the Government should get on with Brexit.

“We do have democracy in this country and when you have a referendum there has to be an acceptance of the result.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/797...-Isaby-EU-exit

Glad we're having these lectures on democracy, presumably all this talk of banning strike action on the railroads will stop now seeing as we all have a new found respect for the democratic process

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Remainers always focus on a few city wide-boy jobs going abroad and ignore the tens of thousands of jobs being created in our bouyant economy despite Brexit, or indeed, maybe because of it.

That always made me chuckle, all the trouble they've caused us and they're threatening to leave, well go on then, see how frankfurt compares to London, just slightly up from some east Asian backwater they threatened to move to last time I'd imagine.

Originally Posted by Mick

These are the ones who are at fault whose minds are still lapping behind and discussing if we should stay or leave, what they need to comprehend is, that boat has sailed, that debate is over.

Then there is the one person, and he know who he is, who continues to berate those who voted leave and treats them with unwarranted disdain, continues to say what a mistake we have made.

Let me make this clear, I will not have anybody tell me, I have made a mistake or tell me they are ashamed to be British, if you feel ashamed, then do so on your own. I did not regret voting leave on June 23rd 2016 and I still don't regret it.

---------- Post added at 19:40 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------



Nice try, but I'm sure martyh voted leave...as for ianch, I just saw on who's online he just sent you a PM.

Marty said that more than once iirc

[jonbxx]

I don't post often i this thread and try not to post opinions as most peoples opinions about Brexit are so firmly entrenched and medium of a discussion forum is so disjointed that it is a bit of a waste of time - face to face is always better.

However, I will make an exception here...

I was a Remain voter and nothing I have seen since has swayed by opinion on this. However, we are a democracy and the people voted Leave and that's that. Sometimes there appears to be a lack of nuance in discussions, especially regarding the EU. It's not 'all good' or 'all bad' but something in the middle.

When it comes to the Brexit process and especially any subsequent trade agreements, there are aspects such as free trade that, for pure economic reasons, we should fight hard to keep. Free trade with no custom barriers are essential for business with an international supply chain and/or customers. For example, just in time manufacturing cannot bear customs hold ups easily. These aspects are worth fighting for - falling back to WTO rules would be a disaster for what is left of our manufacturing capacity.

Based on what I said above, am I fighting Brexit or am I fighting a hard Brexit? I believe that a hard Brexit would be terrible for the UK economy. Brexit will happen but we should fight for the least disruptive path for the economy and the population.

On my mention of nuance, let's play a little game as this discussion has mainly 'Leave' supporters. For Leave people, what is the best thing about the EU and for Remainers, what is the worst thing?

I will kick off as a Remainer - there are two things that bug me. The inability to change VAT rules was a pain. I am thinking about being unable to remove VAT from tampons and digital books as an example. The second is maybe because I am used to a mainly 2 party state in our Parliament with the connection of Parliament with Government that the pace of legislation within the EU Parliament was slow. The EU Parliament is a constant coalition.

[pip08456]

The best thing about the EU is coming out of it.

[papa smurf]

the best thing - article 50


the worst thing - it exists

[Osem]

The EU could have been a wonderful thing without the single currency/one size fits all economic policy, free movement of people and the obsession with ever closer union.

[1andrew1]

I'll play by the rules. I've always criticised the EU and like most people was on the line until I did my own research on the clear advantages of being in the EU.

The worst thing #1 - mandatory VAT on sanitary products though I think the UK government should have not allowed this at the start or put a microscopics VAT rate on.
The worst thing #2 - seeing the minimum attendance that MEPs can get away with but still get paid huge salaries.

and I'll even add in a third for good measure:

That faff in transporting those documents annually from Brussels to Strasbourg.

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Marty said that more than once iirc

My bad, my apologies martyh if you are reading this!

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I'll play by the rules. I've always criticised the EU and like most people was on the line until I did my own research on the clear advantages of being in the EU.

The worst thing #1 - mandatory VAT on sanitary products though I think the UK government should have not allowed this at the start or put a microscopics VAT rate on.
The worst thing #2 - seeing the minimum attendance that MEPs can get away with but still get paid huge salaries.

and I'll even add in a third for good measure:

That faff in transporting those documents annually from Brussels to Strasbourg.

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------


My bad, my apologies martyh if you are reading this!

when

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

when

Verbally not digitally.