Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Do you disagree with Barnier's statement?

Well, obviously. The EU and the UK are pussy-footing around the Russia/China threat. So Barnier was trotting out total gollox.

As do many Remainers.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Well, obviously. The EU and the UK are pussy-footing around the Russia/China threat. So Barnier was trotting out total gollox.

As do many Remainers.

I'm confused, we are pussy footing around China and Russia but shouldn't be firmer at the same time.

As I said before, the EU wanted to up tariffs on Chinese steel to protect domestic industries but the UK vetoed that

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I'm confused, we are pussy footing around China and Russia but shouldn't be firmer at the same time.

As I said before, the EU wanted to up tariffs on Chinese steel to protect domestic industries but the UK vetoed that

I don’t think you are really confused. We both know about realpolitik vs bluster that both the EU and UK perform.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I'm confused, we are pussy footing around China and Russia but shouldn't be firmer at the same time.

As I said before, the EU wanted to up tariffs on Chinese steel to protect domestic industries but the UK vetoed that

The only cohesive argument I can deduce from Seph's posts is that the UK was right to leave the EU as this would allow the EU can take stronger sanctions against other countries without fear of the UK blocking them, as it has done previously.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The only cohesive argument I can deduce from Seph's posts is that the UK was right to leave the EU as this would allow the EU can take stronger sanctions against other countries without fear of the UK blocking them, as it has done previously.

Not at all - and I'm disappointed that this is your conclusion.
I bring you back to post #901, which I elaborated my train of thought. The up front quote in that post is:

The EU itself is reflecting on how to avoid another exit and what it was about the EU that was unattractive to the UK. Barnier has very recently said as much:

I've very clearly pointed out Barnier's lament that the EU is weaker without the UK in dealing with the Russian/China threat and vice-versa. I also pointed out that Barnier was worried about further withdrawals from the EU unless it improved its act.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I don’t think you are really confused. We both know about realpolitik vs bluster that both the EU and UK perform.

All I am getting is that if the UK and EU make the same decision, the UK is good and EU is bad but please educate me.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

All I am getting is that if the UK and EU make the same decision, the UK is good and EU is bad but please educate me.

You're confusing my fairly balanced observations based on Barnier's concerns with my well known disdain for the EU (who threatened us recently with vaccine stoppage).

The balance in my comment is that both the EU and UK sound off about Russia/China but only nibble at the edges where it doesn't matter. I suppose that the UK did some good by offering Hong Kong citizens refuge in the UK - but even them I smell a cynical piece of numerical calculation by the FO.

But still, in respect of the EU, sod 'em.

I've not asked you this before - but do you find the EU to be a wonderful organisation and, if so, in what respect?

Handy hint - others can make an judgement if your (or anyone else's) observations are "fairly balanced", not you; you (or anyone else) making a comment/observations are biased towards the view you/they are putting forward, otherwise, why would they put it forward?

It's also called "marking your own homework*"...

*The expression implies that whenever a person or group self-assesses and/or self regulates their own work they will usually treat it more favorably than if it were assessed by an independent person or group.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I've not asked you this before - but do you find the EU to be a wonderful organisation and, if so, in what respect?

Ask away....

Is the EU perfect? No. Is there a danger of a large union being sluggish and not dynamic due to many vested interests? Yes. The vaccines issue was a good example of where the EU fails by having multiple levels of drug regulation and trying to get a consensus on things in a rapidly changing environment.

BUT...

Is international cooperation and ease of doing business a good thing? Yes. Are there sacrifices to be made to create a level playing field across a large region? Yes Are those sacrifices worth it? Yes. Does freedom of movement create opportunities for my kids? Yes. Does insularity benefit us individually and as a country? No.

Things are not black and white even if some try to make things that way - UK good, EU bad, full stop. There are shades of grey.

So, in summary, is the EU wonderful? No. Was it the least worst option available at when a decision needed to made between leave and remain? Yes

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Handy hint - others can make an judgement if your (or anyone else's) observations are "fairly balanced", not you; you (or anyone else) making a comment/observations are biased towards the view you/they are putting forward, otherwise, why would they put it forward?

It's also called "marking your own homework*"...

*The expression implies that whenever a person or group self-assesses and/or self regulates their own work they will usually treat it more favorably than if it were assessed by an independent person or group.

Stop it. Get off your high horse.

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:44 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Ask away....

Is the EU perfect? No. Is there a danger of a large union being sluggish and not dynamic due to many vested interests? Yes. The vaccines issue was a good example of where the EU fails by having multiple levels of drug regulation and trying to get a consensus on things in a rapidly changing environment.

BUT...

Is international cooperation and ease of doing business a good thing? Yes. Are there sacrifices to be made to create a level playing field across a large region? Yes Are those sacrifices worth it? Yes. Does freedom of movement create opportunities for my kids? Yes. Does insularity benefit us individually and as a country? No.

Things are not black and white even if some try to make things that way - UK good, EU bad, full stop. There are shades of grey.

So, in summary, is the EU wonderful? No. Was it the least worst option available at when a decision needed to made between leave and remain? Yes

I like your reply.

My followers (!) may remember that before we left the EU, I was content to stay in the EU so long as we could prick them with our picador sticks. All of my criticisms of now stood then. It may also be recalled, that the one EU policy I supported was Free Movement (and by corollary the Single Market).

However, by no means did I regard the Single Market as something that we MUST have. I dislike the EU as an institution and am thus equally content to have left the EU.

Contrary to Hugh's ridiculous attempt to lecture me, I'm sure you see me as capable of fair balance, even if I do hate the EU institution.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Stop it. Get off your high horse.

mansplaining from a horse

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Ask away....

Is the EU perfect? No. Is there a danger of a large union being sluggish and not dynamic due to many vested interests? Yes. The vaccines issue was a good example of where the EU fails by having multiple levels of drug regulation and trying to get a consensus on things in a rapidly changing environment.

BUT...

Is international cooperation and ease of doing business a good thing? Yes. Are there sacrifices to be made to create a level playing field across a large region? Yes Are those sacrifices worth it? Yes. Does freedom of movement create opportunities for my kids? Yes. Does insularity benefit us individually and as a country? No.

Things are not black and white even if some try to make things that way - UK good, EU bad, full stop. There are shades of grey.

So, in summary, is the EU wonderful? No. Was it the least worst option available at when a decision needed to made between leave and remain? Yes

Pretty much my views too, for what it's worth.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Stop it. Get off your high horse.

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:44 ----------


I like your reply.

My followers (!) may remember that before we left the EU, I was content to stay in the EU so long as we could prick them with our picador sticks. All of my criticisms of now stood then. It may also be recalled, that the one EU policy I supported was Free Movement (and by corollary the Single Market).

However, by no means did I regard the Single Market as something that we MUST have. I dislike the EU as an institution and am thus equally content to have left the EU.

Contrary to Hugh's ridiculous attempt to lecture me, I'm sure you see me as capable of fair balance, even if I do hate the EU institution.

Dude, I’m not the one indulging in self-praise.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Dude, I’m not the one indulging in self-praise.

I haven't praised myself. You really do need to stop this.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I haven't praised myself. You really do need to stop this.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You're confusing my fairly balanced observations based on Barnier's concerns with my well known disdain for the EU (who threatened us recently with vaccine stoppage).

The balance in my comment is that both the EU and UK sound off about Russia/China but only nibble at the edges where it doesn't matter. I suppose that the UK did some good by offering Hong Kong citizens refuge in the UK - but even them I smell a cynical piece of numerical calculation by the FO.

But still, in respect of the EU, sod 'em.

I've not asked you this before - but do you find the EU to be a wonderful organisation and, if so, in what respect?

??

And from December

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Everyone else is out shopping etc!

Anyway, much of the very wise stuff I've posted hasn't been challenged in any way; does that put me on a par with my good friend jfman?

"To know thyself is the beginning of wisdom.”