Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Who didn't see the 'Brexit is the fault of the EU' argument coming? I thought Brexit was the route to the land of opportunity and people voted leave for a brighter future, not because French people were nasty to them.

There is a wider point in my argument, Jon.

The EU itself is reflecting on how to avoid another exit and what it was about the EU that was unattractive to the UK. Barnier has very recently said as much:

https://www.politico.eu/article/mich...racy-brussels/

A divorce between the EU and one of its members “can happen elsewhere if we’re not paying attention,” former chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier said Tuesday, adding that one of the lessons he learned in the job was a need for “less bureaucracy, more democracy” in Brussels.

He also said (my emphasis added):

What might be a positive” to take from the Brexit process “is the warning signal it represents,” Barnier said. “But frankly, Brexit is a lose-lose situation. It’s a divorce. No one can say a divorce is positive. It’s a weakening … for us, who are amputated of this country … and for the United Kingdom, which finds itself on its own, in distant waters, facing the United States, China and Russia.

I've not seen any EU muscle on Russia, China, USA, maybe you have, Jon. Indeed, quite the contrary:

a) German dependence on Russian gas;

b) EU has signed an investment agreement with China ;

c) EU/US relations are all over the place. https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-cris...idens-america/ A small extract below:

- Europeans’ attitudes towards the United States have undergone a massive change. Majorities in key member states now think the US political system is broken, and that Europe cannot just rely on the US to defend it.

- They evaluate the EU and/or their own countries’ systems much more positively than that of the US – and look to Berlin rather than Washington as the most important partner.

[jfman]

Mind the glory days when Old Boy told us trade with China is the future.

Well I give you the Telecommunications (Security) Bill.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

What kind of person negotiates a deal like that? Best have a word with the person who negotiated it!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57075664

The key words being ‘the way the Northern Ireland Protocol is currently operating’. The EU is clearly not helping to make this agreement work.

Contrast this with the flexibility just shown to the French fishermen in the Jersey dispute. It was discovered in those talks that the French authorities had not told the fishermen about the documentation required so they have now been advised and given extra time to comply. Now that’s the friendly and co-operative approach.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

There is a wider point in my argument, Jon.

The EU itself is reflecting on how to avoid another exit and what it was about the EU that was unattractive to the UK. Barnier has very recently said as much:

https://www.politico.eu/article/mich...racy-brussels/



He also said (my emphasis added):



I've not seen any EU muscle on Russia, China, USA, maybe you have, Jon. Indeed, quite the contrary:

a) German dependence on Russian gas;

b) EU has signed an investment agreement with China ;

c) EU/US relations are all over the place. https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-cris...idens-america/ A small extract below:

You are quoting "a pan-European survey of more than 15,000 people in 11 countries", not any EU politicians. They are reflecting on the previous 4 years of "USA First" and almost Isolationism, and fear a return to that sort of approach again.

Over six in ten respondents across the 11 surveyed countries believe that the US political system is completely or somewhat broken,

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The key words being ‘the way the Northern Ireland Protocol is currently operating’. The EU is clearly not helping to make this agreement work.

Contrast this with the flexibility just shown to the French fishermen in the Jersey dispute. It was discovered in those talks that the French authorities had not told the fishermen about the documentation required so they have now been advised and given extra time to comply. Now that’s the friendly and co-operative approach.

Got a link for that, please?

All I can did is this

The UK says it informed the European Commission about the new licences - but the Commission says this happened only one day before they came into effect, giving no time for any discussion.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

[COLOR="Blue"}


I've not seen any EU muscle on Russia, China, USA, maybe you have, Jon. Indeed, quite the contrary:

a) German dependence on Russian gas;

b) EU has signed an investment agreement with China ;

c) EU/US relations are all over the place. https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-cris...idens-america/ A small extract below:





[/COLOR]

Here you are, took 2 minutes....

EU sanctions against Russia - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...kraine-crisis/

EU China agreement aims to;

• improve investment for European and Chinese investors by creating investment rights and guaranteeing non-discrimination
• improve transparency, licensing and authorisation procedures
• provide a high and balanced level of protection for investors and investments, and;
• put in place rules on environmental and labour-related aspects of foreign investment

Check out the huge list of anti-dumping measures in place - https://trade.ec.europa.eu/tdi/notices.cfm China features very heavily.

Of course, there have been proposals to put anti-dumping measures for steel against China for some time but these were vetoed by the UK. Basically, the UK sold Tata Steel in South Wales down the river.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Here you are, took 2 minutes....

EU sanctions against Russia - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...kraine-crisis/

EU China agreement aims to;

• improve investment for European and Chinese investors by creating investment rights and guaranteeing non-discrimination
• improve transparency, licensing and authorisation procedures
• provide a high and balanced level of protection for investors and investments, and;
• put in place rules on environmental and labour-related aspects of foreign investment

Check out the huge list of anti-dumping measures in place - https://trade.ec.europa.eu/tdi/notices.cfm China features very heavily.

Of course, there have been proposals to put anti-dumping measures for steel against China for some time but these were vetoed by the UK. Basically, the UK sold Tata Steel in South Wales down the river.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Here you are, took 2 minutes....

EU sanctions against Russia - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...kraine-crisis/

EU China agreement aims to;

• improve investment for European and Chinese investors by creating investment rights and guaranteeing non-discrimination
• improve transparency, licensing and authorisation procedures
• provide a high and balanced level of protection for investors and investments, and;
• put in place rules on environmental and labour-related aspects of foreign investment

Check out the huge list of anti-dumping measures in place - https://trade.ec.europa.eu/tdi/notices.cfm China features very heavily.

Of course, there have been proposals to put anti-dumping measures for steel against China for some time but these were vetoed by the UK. Basically, the UK sold Tata Steel in South Wales down the river.

Jon,

Big deal - the sanctions are spits and spots; like banning individuals. Not touching the big ticket items such as gas for Germany.

Ant-dumping is a negative measure that is only symbolic.

I wish you Remainers would get the big picture, Andrew in particular.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Jon,

Big deal - the sanctions are spits and spots; like banning individuals. Not touching the big ticket items such as gas for Germany.

Ant-dumping is a negative measure that is only symbolic.

I wish you Remainers would get the big picture, Andrew in particular.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Jon,

Big deal - the sanctions are spits and spots; like banning individuals. Not touching the big ticket items such as gas for Germany.

Ant-dumping is a negative measure that is only symbolic.

I wish you Remainers would get the big picture, Andrew in particular.

Your big picture is our small picture.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Your big picture is our small picture.

Figures. Banning a Russian or a Chinaman is your big picture.
Of course.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Figures. Banning a Russian or a Chinaman is your big picture.
Of course.

If I was Putin, it would be better to have the West arguing against itself and to remove gunboats to the Channel Islands that normally face off against the Russian navy. The motivation's there, the investigation's not. Strange that.

Government failure to investigate alleged Russian interference in the European Union referendum is “inexcusable”, according to the UK’s former top diplomat in Moscow.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9636241.html

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

[/COLOR]Got a link for that, please?

All I can did is this

I cannot find a link that states the French authorities failed to tell the protesting fishermen about the new rules - I think I picked that up from a news bulletin, either on the BBC or Sky.

However, my point was that we are making serious attempts to resolve this crisis (as shown in the link below) whereas we have had nothing but obstruction from the EU in getting the NI border sorted out.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-05-05/...ing-rights-row

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Jon,

Big deal - the sanctions are spits and spots; like banning individuals. Not touching the big ticket items such as gas for Germany.

Ant-dumping is a negative measure that is only symbolic.

I wish you Remainers would get the big picture, Andrew in particular.

So are you expecting the UK to be tougher now with China and Russia now we have left?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

So are you expecting the UK to be tougher now with China and Russia now we have left?

Not really. My point was to highlight Barnier's position coupled with the EU's hypocrisy on dealing with the threatening external powers.

To remind what Barnier said:

What might be a positive” to take from the Brexit process “is the warning signal it represents,” Barnier said. “But frankly, Brexit is a lose-lose situation. It’s a divorce. No one can say a divorce is positive. It’s a weakening … for us, who are amputated of this country … and for the United Kingdom, which finds itself on its own, in distant waters, facing the United States, China and Russia.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Not really. My point was to highlight Barnier's position coupled with the EU's hypocrisy on dealing with the threatening external powers.

To remind what Barnier said

Do you disagree with Barnier's statement?