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Coronavirus
View Poll Results: When you become eligible for the Covid Vaccine, would you take it?
Yes 57 83.82%
No 6 8.82%
Unsure 5 7.35%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 26-01-2021, 10:36   #3061
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
I don't think it's constructive to try and point score here between nations.
I am having an impossibly hard time believing that the UK’s refusal to join the EU procurement programme would not be being discussed at length in this thread right now, had the vaccine approval/supply situation been reversed. There was certainly attempted point scoring at the time that decision was made - Brexit ideology before people’s lives, etc etc etc. Der schuh ist now on the other fuss.

Quote:
That approach fails anyway as all the companies concerned contain a wealth of international talent. Astra Zeneca is an Anglo-Swedish company headed up since 2012 by Pascal Soriot, a Frenchman.
You’re making the tired old remainer error of assuming that criticism of the EU and the UK’s relationship to it can be boiled down to xenophobia. That’s not the case and continually having to rebut that tired old trope is getting very tedious.

The EU is a political construct that continues to extend and deepen its influence over its members thanks to the basic assumption that a concept they call “pooled sovereignty” is better than nation states acting for themselves. The UK has in this case been able to act in a more agile manner than the sclerotic EU bureaucracy to get vaccine approval and distribution going earlier and at a faster rate. It has leveraged long-standing policies that have continued to encourage world-leading research to happen here as well as high-tech manufacturing. Part of the package here is attracting the highly educated and talented individuals to come here to do their research and development and to work in these cutting-edge manufacturing processes - wherever in the world they come from.

I have no desire to turn the coronavirus thread into another Brexit/EU thread, but not do I have any intention of allowing such a glaring failure in EU policy to pass unregarded, not when the UK’s approach (possible only because we have left the EU) has so far been a world-leader.
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Old 26-01-2021, 11:12   #3062
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I am having an impossibly hard time believing that the UK’s refusal to join the EU procurement programme would not be being discussed at length in this thread right now, had the vaccine approval/supply situation been reversed. There was certainly attempted point scoring at the time that decision was made - Brexit ideology before people’s lives, etc etc etc. Der schuh ist now on the other fuss.


<SNIP>
Or put another way: Die Scheisse trifft den Fan. (Gender deliberately chosen).

But what does annoy me is that the UK Minister, while giving categoric assurances this morning on TV, would not provide information to back his statement up. People here are very worried and need believable re-assurance.

Btw, having a chuckle at the EU's difficulties is only natural for normal British people.
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Old 26-01-2021, 11:17   #3063
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Re: Coronavirus

The German Government has also now denied the 8% effectiveness story and I believe the newspaper has withdrawn the story.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN29V0ZC
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Old 26-01-2021, 11:18   #3064
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Re: Coronavirus

If you can't blame Boris, blame the EU/Brexit. If it's not EU/Brexit it's Boris.

More seriously though is the Oxford vaccine's ability to be stored more "normally" means it's the better choice in countries without the high tech infrastructure that we in the West have. If the German report is founded then it will have less impact in the West where we can use the other vaccines on older folk and the Oxford one where it is effective.

---
On another line : how should centres use up spare vaccine that can't be stored when the booked appointments have been cleared? Not condoning queue jumping per se as reported friends using common link to get appointment but reports on media that stock of vaccine at end of day are being given to people further down priority where alternative is to bin it. (Assumes that stock isn't deliberately kept back)
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Old 26-01-2021, 11:37   #3065
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
The German Government has also now denied the 8% effectiveness story and I believe the newspaper has withdrawn the story.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN29V0ZC
From Twitter;

Quote:
Alex Wickham
@alexwickham
NEW: The German Health Ministry has DENIED the Handelsblatt report claiming the AstraZeneca vaccine had only 8% efficacy for over-65s

They say there has been confusion and 8% actually refers to the number of people in the study between 56 and 69 years old
Ooof, that's embarrassing for some journalist!
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Old 26-01-2021, 11:57   #3066
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
I don't think it's constructive to try and point score here between nations. That approach fails anyway as all the companies concerned contain a wealth of international talent. Astra Zeneca is an Anglo-Swedish company headed up since 2012 by Pascal Soriot, a Frenchman.
Well, you would say that, wouldn’t you, Andrew, because it shows the bureaucratic EU in a bad light and it shines a light on nimble, post Brexit Britain.

The ‘international talent’ argument is irrelevant here. This is all about the fact that the EU’s inefficient procurement procedures have delayed the whole process. EU countries are all aware that Britain is streets ahead and it has not gone down well. They have yet even to approve the Astra Zeneca vaccine!

This is the first example of the benefits of Brexit, and it’s only January.

Having said that, I hope the problem at the Belgium operation is sorted out quickly. Lives are at stake here and so they need to get these problems resolved.
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Old 26-01-2021, 12:17   #3067
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Having said that, I hope the problem at the Belgium operation is sorted out quickly. Lives are at stake here and so they need to get these problems resolved.
Surely a bit of good old fashioned shielding would do the trick wouldn't it?
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Old 26-01-2021, 12:26   #3068
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
The German Government has also now denied the 8% effectiveness story and I believe the newspaper has withdrawn the story.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN29V0ZC
Seems someone was confused by the numbers.
Quote:
The German Health Ministry has DENIED the Handelsblatt report claiming the AstraZeneca vaccine had only 8% efficacy for over-65s

They say there has been confusion and 8% actually refers to the number of people in the study between 56 and 69 years old
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Old 26-01-2021, 12:33   #3069
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Well, you would say that, wouldn’t you, Andrew, because it shows the bureaucratic EU in a bad light and it shines a light on nimble, post Brexit Britain.

The ‘international talent’ argument is irrelevant here. This is all about the fact that the EU’s inefficient procurement procedures have delayed the whole process. EU countries are all aware that Britain is streets ahead and it has not gone down well. They have yet even to approve the Astra Zeneca vaccine!

This is the first example of the benefits of Brexit, and it’s only January.

Having said that, I hope the problem at the Belgium operation is sorted out quickly. Lives are at stake here and so they need to get these problems resolved.
Maybe they haven't approved the Astrazenica vaccine because they have concerns about it?

We had no option but to approve it because it's the only show in town. Even then we may not hit the herd immunity threshold with it. So I'd not count those chickens before they hatch. More lockdowns while we wait on more effective vaccines would be a sub-optimal outcome I'm sure you'd agree.
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Old 26-01-2021, 12:52   #3070
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth View Post
Surely a bit of good old fashioned shielding would do the trick wouldn't it?
Yes, but most of us just want to get back to normal, Grim.
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Old 26-01-2021, 13:05   #3071
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Re: Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Maybe they haven't approved the Astrazenica vaccine because they have concerns about it?

We had no option but to approve it because it's the only show in town. Even then we may not hit the herd immunity threshold with it. So I'd not count those chickens before they hatch. More lockdowns while we wait on more effective vaccines would be a sub-optimal outcome I'm sure you'd agree.
I appreciate you’re just trying to promote robust debate but you’re veering into vaccine conspiracy territory here. “No option but to approve it because it’s the only show in town” could very easily be taken to mean there has been corner-cutting. There has been no evidence of this and neither has there been any suggestion of concerns over safety at the EMA. In any case, the Pfizer vaccine was approved in the UK first, when it was the only show in town. Ox/AZ came second. The delay at the EMA is down to the efficacy data, which as we all know was compromised by the half-dose error during trials which also suggested it is possible to drive the Ox/AZ vaccine’s efficacy well over 90%.

The UK regulator was satisfied that the vaccine is safe and while it did review the trial data it saw no reason there not to allow the vaccine to be used. Why the EMA feels it has to spend so much longer on it is anyone’s guess. I suspect it probably has more to do with the vendors and quantities the EU has purchased causing them to focus on approving other vaccines first (principally Pfizer, followed by Moderna), though even here, they haven’t exactly moved nimbly. Across the pond, the FDA has a long-established reputation for refusing to accept conclusions drawn from trial data as presented by drug companies and for conducting its own exhaustive reviews of raw data. Approving drugs always takes longer there as a result.
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Old 26-01-2021, 13:37   #3072
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Re: Coronavirus

@jonbxx

Jon - you might know the answer.

Let's say that a CV sufferer of a couple of months tests positive at that point. That sufferer appears to be recovering.

Some people are saying that although testing positive, the sufferer is no longer contagious. Is that right? Can the swab test differentiate between active and inactive virus cells? Logic tells me that whatever the sufferer is spewing out at that point would be contagion unless virus cells detected were inactive.

Cheers.

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Old 26-01-2021, 13:37   #3073
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Re: Coronavirus

My point by “the only show in town” is we don’t have sufficient vaccine orders for any other vaccine to have a widespread vaccination programme with any other.

At no point am I suggesting it’s unsafe however there’s a clear “emergency use” rationale for us to approve it while others with a more diverse set of orders do not.

I’d certainly be reluctant to claim victory in this race so early when the real world performance with 12 week gaps, and against mutant strains, is untested (I accept this is true of all vaccines).

While it may be possible to drive up, based on a subset of results, the Ox/At vaccine to 90% that’s not the basis on which we are delivering it now.

Emergency use can be issued where a regulator is satisfied it will have an effect better than doing nothing. Not necessarily that it’ll achieve herd immunity or equally perform to other products in the marketplace that you can’t buy anyway.
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Old 26-01-2021, 13:47   #3074
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth View Post
Surely a bit of good old fashioned shielding would do the trick wouldn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Yes, but most of us just want to get back to normal, Grim.
Most of us don’t want to catch and spread COVID, especially as the issues with Long COVID are coming more to the fore...
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Old 26-01-2021, 14:29   #3075
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Re: Coronavirus

It's worth noting that the UK is ahead of most countries (I think 3rd in the world) for vaccine distribution. So props to the NHS and Boris.
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