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Old 22-01-2019, 18:45   #6796
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
There is nowhere in the European Union where the cost of living is so low that Universal Credit can be considered a “fortune”; you’re also ignoring the fact they have to live on it HERE.

There’s little to no evidence of any of what you suggest and even where such little instances do happen removing EU migration and EU trade is somewhat using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

There’s no evidence the NHS will be better off when it has to take the time and effort to train staff rather than import them.
There are plenty of EU countries whose welfare state is either inferior or non existent compared to ours with plenty of evidence that this attracts both EU and non EU immigrants alike. To these people, UC is indeed a fortune as is the minimum wage. Because of our different standards of living, prices will also appear to be correspondingly higher too (especially for accommodation); this is mitigated by workers sleeping rough, living in tents, severely overcrowding houses etc.

I haven't suggested removing EU immigration, I haven't mentioned the separate issue of EU trade, nor the issue of immigrants working in the NHS- I was referring to the users of it.
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Old 22-01-2019, 18:49   #6797
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
There are plenty of EU countries whose welfare state is either inferior or non existent compared to ours with plenty of evidence that this attracts both EU and non EU immigrants alike. To these people, UC is indeed a fortune as is the minimum wage. Because of our different standards of living, prices will also appear to be correspondingly higher too (especially for accommodation); this is mitigated by workers sleeping rough, living in tents, severely overcrowding houses etc.

I haven't suggested removing EU immigration, I haven't mentioned the separate issue of EU trade, nor the issue of immigrants working in the NHS- I was referring to the users of it.
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/blog/soc...-isnt-britain/
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Old 22-01-2019, 18:56   #6798
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
There was a TV programme where a Czech Roma couple had arrived in Rotherham with twenty-two of their children and grandchildren. Only one of them had a job. So they, along with an estimated 6,000 other Czech Roma just in Rotherham, had to be housed, funded with benefits etc. The fallacy is that enough of the 3m EU residents actually contribute. Especially if you factor in an upfront cost of building the houses to house them in the first place.

So is the stock in all the Eastern European shops produced in the UK? Or is it shipped in from Eastern Europe.
I remember seeing this programme and talking about it the day afterwards. One elderly customer remarked that she'd overheard an immigrant on his mobile phone saying "you come to England, they pay you to have children". I remember remarking that, however unpalatable his comments were, he was telling the truth.

Presumably this is why, in most cases, people can now only claim for a maximum of two children and why the NASS system for calculating money given to asylum seekers has been reformed.

Because we aren't allowed to treat EU citizens any differently to our own population, this legislation to counter this greedy abuse of our generosity also affects those who took no part in it too.

There's a similar issue with the EHIC cards. If someone from Spain comes here, they automatically enjoy all the benefits of our NHS. When I visit Spain, however, I have to register as a temporary visitor, which often means wasting my first day hanging around a Government office. They don't rush and, even then, the cover isn't equivalent to our NHS as there are often charges to pay.
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Old 22-01-2019, 19:01   #6799
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
That mainly includes in-work benefits and doesn't include Eastern European countries, and is therefore not relevant.
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taking into account factors such as maternity and paternity leave, general parental leave, paid holiday allowance, paid sick leave and unemployment benefits.
The problems started when EU countries not included in that report, joined the EU or were allowed to come here.
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Old 22-01-2019, 19:09   #6800
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
This data is three years old, but nevertheless is still interesting to look at. I'm surprised that the EU countries expecting us to bail them out after we ourselves have had to endure nearly a decade of austerity.

Overall, the UK is still a magnet, otherwise why would both EU and non EU immigrants take such desperate measures to get here? Asylum seekers in particular risk their lives and pass through safe places prior to getting to the UK.

The UK used to have a similar system as Denmark for cushioning the effects of unemployment, with claimants being paid an 'Earnings Related Supplement' during the initial period of their claim. The Thatcher Government abolished this in 1982.

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:05 ----------

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
That mainly includes in-work benefits and doesn't include Eastern European countries, and is therefore not relevant.
The problems started when EU countries not included in that report, joined the EU or were allowed to come here.
Totally agree. The main problems appear to have started when the poorer Eastern European countries were allowed to join.

If a new law was introduced that allowed anyone in a particular street to live in any of the houses (and they could not lawfully be refused access) it's obviously going to be a case of the poorer residents moving into the more affluent homes!
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Old 22-01-2019, 19:21   #6801
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
I remember seeing this programme and talking about it the day afterwards. One elderly customer remarked that she'd overheard an immigrant on his mobile phone saying "you come to England, they pay you to have children". I remember remarking that, however unpalatable his comments were, he was telling the truth.

Presumably this is why, in most cases, people can now only claim for a maximum of two children and why the NASS system for calculating money given to asylum seekers has been reformed.

Because we aren't allowed to treat EU citizens any differently to our own population, this legislation to counter this greedy abuse of our generosity also affects those who took no part in it too.

There's a similar issue with the EHIC cards. If someone from Spain comes here, they automatically enjoy all the benefits of our NHS. When I visit Spain, however, I have to register as a temporary visitor, which often means wasting my first day hanging around a Government office. They don't rush and, even then, the cover isn't equivalent to our NHS as there are often charges to pay.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...nt-cost-to-nhs

If we aren't recovering the costs we are entitled to then we should resolve it that way, as it seems we are paying out more to EEA countries for our tourists overseas. So again this is just a racist myth based on anecdotal accounts and an absence of evidence.

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
This data is three years old, but nevertheless is still interesting to look at. I'm surprised that the EU countries expecting us to bail them out after we ourselves have had to endure nearly a decade of austerity.
If it's out of date can you explain the factors that mean reality and 2016 isn't representative of reality in 2019?

Quote:
Overall, the UK is still a magnet, otherwise why would both EU and non EU immigrants take such desperate measures to get here? Asylum seekers in particular risk their lives and pass through safe places prior to getting to the UK.
EU migrants don't claim asylum here. You are conflating two separate issues that aren't one and the same.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8504206.html

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u...the-uk-asylum/

The numbers are absolutely tiny - approx 30 000 per year since 2010 and a tiny fraction of all applications across the European Union.

Quote:
The UK used to have a similar system as Denmark for cushioning the effects of unemployment, with claimants being paid an 'Earnings Related Supplement' during the initial period of their claim. The Thatcher Government abolished this in 1982.

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:05 ----------



Totally agree. The main problems appear to have started when the poorer Eastern European countries were allowed to join.

If a new law was introduced that allowed anyone in a particular street to live in any of the houses (and they could not lawfully be refused access) it's obviously going to be a case of the poorer residents moving into the more affluent homes!
What an absolutely rubbish comparison. EU migration is hardly equivalent to giving out free nice houses. The vast, vast majority make a contribution to this country.
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Old 22-01-2019, 19:32   #6802
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Re: Brexit

Doesn't the EHIC card only really apply to visitors and not residents? That would mean that NHS costs are NOT recoverable for EU residents.
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Old 22-01-2019, 21:02   #6803
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
Nothing like brazen Brexit hypocrisy especially as he was claiming to speak for the thousands of British businesses that are hoping to manufacture in the UK after Brexit.
In June 2016, Dyson did say “We will create more wealth and more jobs by being outside the EU.”

Well, Singapore is certainly outside the EU, so he wasn’t lying, and to be fair to him, he didn't actually specify that the wealth and jobs would be in the UK...
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Old 23-01-2019, 00:03   #6804
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...nt-cost-to-nhs

If we aren't recovering the costs we are entitled to then we should resolve it that way, as it seems we are paying out more to EEA countries for our tourists overseas. So again this is just a racist myth based on anecdotal accounts and an absence of evidence.

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:11 ----------



If it's out of date can you explain the factors that mean reality and 2016 isn't representative of reality in 2019?



EU migrants don't claim asylum here. You are conflating two separate issues that aren't one and the same.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8504206.html

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u...the-uk-asylum/

The numbers are absolutely tiny - approx 30 000 per year since 2010 and a tiny fraction of all applications across the European Union.



What an absolutely rubbish comparison. EU migration is hardly equivalent to giving out free nice houses. The vast, vast majority make a contribution to this country.
You need to stop purposely bringing the R word into it, it's being unnecessarily inflammatory.

Anyone can repeatedly Google for out of date information to try and prove a point. Again, nobody has suggested that immigrants from the EU claim asylum. I was responding to your claim that immigrants aren't attracted to our superior welfare state.

You appear to have totally misunderstood my comparison to being forced to accept people into the UK and the reasons why they would want to do impose themselves upon us (along with the general confusion caused by you responding to points that haven't been made).

Also, whilst immigration is a key factor in Brexit, as usual you seem to become obsessed with one particular point in a thread and go on about it ad infinitum. Others have remarked that this has all been covered before (which it has), so i'm now bringing our conversation to a close before everyone else falls asleep.

Last edited by RichardCoulter; 23-01-2019 at 00:07.
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Old 23-01-2019, 07:08   #6805
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Carth View Post
It's just business, nothing more. Move manufacturing to a country with low wages & long hours, build it cheap knowing the 'name' will sell it dear



edit: in fact it's a little like Range Rover & Slovakia
Difference is though the EU gave range rover hundreds of millions to build that plant in Slovakia, we the British tax payer gave hundreds of millions to dyson for research and development, I for one will be keeping a close eye on developments and be voting with my feet if he starts really pushing his luck and would hope fellow citizens repay his loyalty in the same way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Would that be the same poll where 26% thought that ‘no deal’ meant staying in the EU
Don't dare tell them they didn't know what they were voting for though

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Plan B is TM’s version of the British abroad - say Plan A again but slower and louder, with lots of hand gestures...
Well it's the only way to get them to understand, Manuel dos pina coladas to whilst you're at it

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Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
You need to stop purposely bringing the R word into it, it's being unnecessarily inflammatory.
R word, what remainer
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Old 23-01-2019, 07:54   #6806
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
In June 2016, Dyson did say “We will create more wealth and more jobs by being outside the EU.”

Well, Singapore is certainly outside the EU, so he wasn’t lying, and to be fair to him, he didn't actually specify that the wealth and jobs would be in the UK...
With Singapore and the EU just signing a free trade agreement Dyson will lose none of his EU business.
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Old 23-01-2019, 09:17   #6807
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
Not that it will happen, but IF then I'd suspect to see both sides paying a sum
It wont happen, it’s just the EU ratcheting up the pressure, a hard border would be political suicide for the Irish PM, if the EU were seen to “Force” the Irish to build it you would immediately see legal challenges a plenty.

It won’t happen.

---------- Post added at 09:17 ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 ----------

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Of course it's business. It's just that one of the biggest business supporters of Brexit and how it will help British business is moving his British business out of Britain. It may not be because of the EU, although at the present rate he'll have better access to that market than he would here, but it's hardly a big confidence vote in this new dawn for British manufacturing he advocated for.
Always pays to know more before a rant. Dysons manufacturing went offshore years ago. All the R&D is on the UK. This move relocated a massive Two people to Singapore that’s it. No other UK positions are affected.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.b...iness-46962093
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Old 23-01-2019, 09:38   #6808
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
You appear to have totally misunderstood my comparison to being forced to accept people into the UK and the reasons why they would want to do impose themselves upon us (along with the general confusion caused by you responding to points that haven't been made).

Also, whilst immigration is a key factor in Brexit, as usual you seem to become obsessed with one particular point in a thread and go on about it ad infinitum. Others have remarked that this has all been covered before (which it has), so i'm now bringing our conversation to a close before everyone else falls asleep.
How were we forced to accept freedom of movement? We signed the Maastricht Treaty willingly. We signed off on Directive 2004/38/EC willingly. Hell, we knew about freedom of movement established in the treaties of Paris (1951) and Rome (1957) before we even joined the EEC as was. Nothing has been forced upon the UK here.

Of course, the freedom of movement established by 2004/38/EC puts limitations of three months to stay after which citizens must be working or the dependent of a worker or be financially self sufficient. The UK has never enforced this properly. Rules in place do not allow benefit tourism for EU citizens if the UK wanted to enforce them.
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Old 23-01-2019, 09:39   #6809
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
You need to stop purposely bringing the R word into it, it's being unnecessarily inflammatory.

Anyone can repeatedly Google for out of date information to try and prove a point. Again, nobody has suggested that immigrants from the EU claim asylum. I was responding to your claim that immigrants aren't attracted to our superior welfare state.

You appear to have totally misunderstood my comparison to being forced to accept people into the UK and the reasons why they would want to do impose themselves upon us (along with the general confusion caused by you responding to points that haven't been made).

Also, whilst immigration is a key factor in Brexit, as usual you seem to become obsessed with one particular point in a thread and go on about it ad infinitum. Others have remarked that this has all been covered before (which it has), so i'm now bringing our conversation to a close before everyone else falls asleep.
You haven’t actuallly proved any of your assertions, which is why we haven’t moved on from the point. I don’t really care for the distinction between racism and xenophobia either way it’s ignorance of the facts.
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Old 23-01-2019, 10:17   #6810
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
It wont happen, it’s just the EU ratcheting up the pressure, a hard border would be political suicide for the Irish PM, if the EU were seen to “Force” the Irish to build it you would immediately see legal challenges a plenty.

It won’t happen.

---------- Post added at 09:17 ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 ----------



Always pays to know more before a rant. Dysons manufacturing went offshore years ago. All the R&D is on the UK. This move relocated a massive Two people to Singapore that’s it. No other UK positions are affected.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.b...iness-46962093
Yet - you don't move your HQ to another country and only move two people.

I am sure that the Singapore Development Board have offered him some tax incentives to be registered there, as they have in the past to other companies, such as reducing the Corporate Tax Rate for 5 years, or allowing tax write-offs for development projects, and the move will lessen his tax bills in the UK.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...pore-fldzsbxvc
Quote:
Britain is set to lose tens of millions of pounds in tax revenues after Sir James Dyson, one of the country’s most prominent Brexit supporters, announced plans to relocate the headquarters of his company to Singapore.

The business said that Asia was now the main focus of its activities and that it should be regarded as a “global technology company”.

The move is likely to cost the government up to £60 million a year in lost corporation tax revenues.
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