Brexit (Old)

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Ah I see, so some 52:48 results are different to others

They can't deliver a decent Brexit, it's fundamentally flawed. Damage limitation is the best they can hope for.

Look - you just don't get it.

The two 52/48 possible Referendum results are very different. Remain would have meant Remain with no change; Leave should have meant Leave on best possible terms. Instead, as we both agree, we appear to have a total mess of the guvmin's incompetent making.

Brexit as a goal is not fundamentally flawed at all. You Remainers have totally avoided my reasoned arguments for leaving, particular the detail I provided about German hegemony and the dirty tricks they played to get there. You are ignoring the EC dirty tricks that put the squeeze onto the likes of Greece and Italy.

The gap between you and me is appreciation of the truth and the propriety of observing Referendum result which you appear not to want to do.

All that said, I'm a realist and if we stay in the EU because of a possible second referendum, I want the UK to stay above the EC shenanigans and stick it to Juncker and Selmayr.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Also Farage did also say that he would support the idea of a second referendum, even after leave won the current referendum:

This was in January of this year:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ferendum-video

As do I support a second referendum. The people are now more aware of the issues and 52/48 is what has generated all this heat.

[Chloé Palmas]

What he said, I would echo it word for word.

[Gavin78]

We should blame the EU as well they aren't really playing ball either are they? They would simply have us leave paying off 80 billion or more in whatever fantasy debts they say we owe and keep all the invested stuff as well we have put into.

They'll make sure for the next time that once you are in the club there is no way out of the club

[Chloé Palmas]

Isn't that their job, to protect their own interests? You don't expect them to benefit the Brits, do you?

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As do I support a second referendum. The people are now more aware of the issues and 52/48 is what has generated all this heat.

NO its a total disregard of the democratic vote that has generated all this heat.

Your right about being more aware, i now have a better idea of how utterly disgraceful the EU is and want to leave even more than i did at the time of the original democratic vote.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Isn't that their job, to protect their own interests? You don't expect them to benefit the Brits, do you?

Of course they won't but anybody who thinks British governments protect our own interests will find that all the family silver has all been sold and is nicely nestled in foreign hands now..

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As do I support a second referendum. The people are now more aware of the issues and 52/48 is what has generated all this heat.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

NO its a total disregard of the democratic vote that has generated all this heat.

Your right about being more aware, i now have a better idea of how utterly disgraceful the EU is and want to leave even more than i did at the time of the original democratic vote.

Not "NO". That's one of the issues of which people are more aware.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

NO its a total disregard of the democratic vote that has generated all this heat.

Your right about being more aware, i now have a better idea of how utterly disgraceful the EU is and want to leave even more than i did at the time of the original democratic vote.

Just wonder why those Brexiters are so against a vote ? It would be on a different issue on whether or not to accept any deal ? That deal could mean very different things. The issue is big, affect generations to come, and so country changing that we need to be sure. It's not as if we don't have General Elections every few years, nothing is forever.

Think the real reason is because they know they'd lose such a vote by a long way. Some are intrenched in their 'i can never be wrong' position, but others have wised up. Day by Day the chaos of Brexit becomes apparent. I don't totally blame the Government, they've been asked to deliver something that is going to cause the country great harm. Doubtless Brexiteers will blame them and everyone else, anyone but themselves.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Just wonder why those Brexiters are so against a vote ? It would be on a different issue on whether or not to accept any deal ? That deal could mean very different things. The issue is big, affect generations to come, and so country changing that we need to be sure. It's not as if we don't have General Elections every few years, nothing is forever.

Think the real reason is because they know they'd lose such a vote by a long way. Some are intrenched in their 'i can never be wrong' position, but others have wised up. Day by Day the chaos of Brexit becomes apparent. I don't totally blame the Government, they've been asked to deliver something that is going to cause the country great harm. Doubtless Brexiteers will blame them and everyone else, anyone but themselves.

Once again, you totally ignore argument that shows how bad the EU behave on squeezing and bending countries to the Commission's will. Not to mention German hegemony.

Leavers want to break away from that; Remainers ignore this important aspect and those on this thread don't even acknowledge the point.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Just wonder why those Brexiters are so against a vote ? It would be on a different issue on whether or not to accept any deal ? That deal could mean very different things. The issue is big, affect generations to come, and so country changing that we need to be sure. It's not as if we don't have General Elections every few years, nothing is forever.

Think the real reason is because they know they'd lose such a vote by a long way. Some are intrenched in their 'i can never be wrong' position, but others have wised up. Day by Day the chaos of Brexit becomes apparent. I don't totally blame the Government, they've been asked to deliver something that is going to cause the country great harm. Doubtless Brexiteers will blame them and everyone else, anyone but themselves.

Referendums are not general elections. They don’t get revisited every five years because they are only held when major, permanent constitutional changes are being mooted.

It is very clear that the ‘final say’ advocates are actually the very same people who have been looking for a way to stop Brexit since the day the result was announced. It is obvious that they are calling for the ‘final say’ question to be framed in such a way that it isn’t a vote on the nature of our departure but simply a re-run of the last referendum.

A ‘final say’ referendum would give the European Commission the final excuse it needs to be intractable to the point of offering an intolerable deal to the U.K. in the expectation that British voters would reject it and Brexit would then be prevented.

Yes, we Brexiteers fear a second referendum - not because we fear democracy, but because we’re not so blind that we can’t see exactly what the continuity remain campaign has been manoeuvring to achieve for the last 2 years.

There is little precedent for any kind of referendum in the British constitution and there is absolutely no precedent for re-addressing the same issue on a timescale less than 20 years (on the Scottish devolution question - the gap between EU referendums was 40 years).

All that aside, there is now barely enough time, allowing for Parliamentary procedure plus a reasonable campaign period (which would be determined in consultation with the electoral commission) to set up and run a referendum before next March. So unless May caves in and agrees to it very shortly after the recess (and she won’t), you can stop bleating about it and get on with your life - it ain’t happening.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Once again, you totally ignore argument that shows how bad the EU behave on squeezing and bending countries to the Commission's will. Not to mention German hegemony.

Leavers want to break away from that; Remainers ignore this important aspect and those on this thread don't even acknowledge the point.

Never pretended the EU was perfect. But those saying it is totally corrupt, as some on here have done, is slightly overstating the case ! When has there been large scale corruption ? Is it any more than any other large organisation? (not that I'm excusing it).

Acting as One is part of the strength, yes if anyone is a minority on issue they have to compromise. tbh honest the EU were very flexible to us -rebates and opt outs, we' ll never get such a good deal again.

The alternative of going it alone may provide a few advantages but it vastly outweighed by the economic damage. We're a relatively small country, we won't be no 1 on the list for trade deals with other countries and we'll be in a weak position. The BINO option just leaves us paying into the EU with no say.. Sometimes the grass isn't always greener elsewhere. It's going to be a very tough long lasting lesson.

The obsession with individuals (Junker) or anti German French stuff is nationalistic tabloid nonsense. Individuals and jingoism are irrelevant to our economic future.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Also Farage did also say that he would support the idea of a second referendum, even after leave won the current referendum:

This was in January of this year:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ferendum-video

Rees Mogg also agreed with this point:



---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As do I support a second referendum. The people are now more aware of the issues and 52/48 is what has generated all this heat.

I also second this. It is refreshing to see that someone who has openly supported Leave can accept and agree that the situation we find ourselves in, together with how we got here leads you to a rational conclusion that the country needs to sign off whatever deal/no deal is finally arrived at.

I personally believe that the original referendum is not some holy writ that is not allowed to be challenged. It was flawed on many levels but it is what it is so we have to deal with the consequences.

I find it troubling that any debate on validating the final deal is met with cries of Treason and 'What price democracy!" This is designed to stop an informed decision on what is our and our children's future for decades to come. Just stop and pause for a moment: this is not a vote on whether we should change Sunday shopping hours, it is a decision that will fundamentally change the nature of this country in all sorts of ways, some obvious, some not so.

The first referendum was not an informed decision not matter how many say "I know that I voted for". This is a matter of record. If the case for Leaving is so clear and obvious, then the Leave side cannot fear a second vote ..

Then if you Remainers still don’t get the result you want, will you demand another and then another and then another, until you get the result you want?

There is no basis for a second vote, the first was not flawed at all. The question was simple, Leave or Remain. Leave clearly won.

There should be no further vote. Leave means leave.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Mick

Then if you Remainers still don’t get the result you want, will you demand another and then another and then another, until you get the result you want?

No, I am happy with just the one. A vote where before it takes place, the electorate is presented with an informed, detailed and coherent plan (on both sides) with a clear and authoritative risk analysis of the short, medium and long economic projections.