Crisis in the NHS

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Well more are leaving nursing than joining OB, so getting rid of bursaries has backfired. Something they could easily resolve and should do so immediately.

I think you will find that there are more nurses studying now than when there were bursaries. This is a complete red herring.

If they allowed non graduates to come in as nurses, you would solve the problem quite quickly. Graduate nurses turn their noses up at carrying out some of the dirty jobs long associated with nursing.

The answers are there if you look for them. Unfortunately, rather than do the job properly, too many politicians think that all they have to do is throw money at it and it will go away.

Guess what? It doesn't.

---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

Nor did any of our family and friends who worked or are still working for the NHS.

I wasn't talking about NHS employees specifically. I was drawing attention to the fact that in other industries, you have to pay for your own training. Why should NHS staff be any different?

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

If they allowed non graduates to come in as nurses, you would solve the problem quite quickly. Graduate nurses turn their noses up at carrying out some of the dirty jobs long associated with nursing.

Given that some nurses are doing jobs that Drs used to do, running clinics, some performing minor surgery, think you'll find they they do need to be highly trained.Its not Carry on Nursing with bedpans any longer. The problem is that as it's been a female dominated profession, wages are low compared to other graduates, and they are just taken for granted.

Better prospects elsewhere for young people and the EU nurses are going to more welcoming countries who appreciate and pay them more.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Given that some nurses are doing jobs that Drs used to do, running clinics, some performing minor surgery, think you'll find they they do need to be highly trained.Its not Carry on Nursing with bedpans any longer. The problem is that as it's been a female dominated profession, wages are low compared to other graduates, and they are just taken for granted.

Better prospects elsewhere for young people and the EU nurses are going to more welcoming countries who appreciate and pay them more.

Exactly Mr K because if this country does not look after its doctors and nurses then they only have themselves to blame as goodwill and loyalty will only get you so far.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Given that some nurses are doing jobs that Drs used to do, running clinics, some performing minor surgery, think you'll find they they do need to be highly trained.Its not Carry on Nursing with bedpans any longer. The problem is that as it's been a female dominated profession, wages are low compared to other graduates, and they are just taken for granted.

Better prospects elsewhere for young people and the EU nurses are going to more welcoming countries who appreciate and pay them more.

Non graduate nurses could be employed at a lower pay grade, avoiding the more testing duties that you speak of. This would relieve tne graduate nurses of some of their workload so they could spend more time carrying out higher level work.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Non graduate nurses could be employed at a lower pay grade, avoiding the more testing duties that you speak of. This would relieve tne graduate nurses of some of their workload so they could spend more time carrying out higher level work.

You mean AN's, SEN's and SRN's?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by pip08456

You mean AN's, SEN's and SRN's?

I am talking about a different category of nurse, performing all but the most advanced aspects of nursing.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I am talking about a different category of nurse, performing all but the most advanced aspects of nursing.

Those I've listed then. They are what we used to have on wards before degrees became necessary to be a nurse.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Those I've listed then. They are what we used to have on wards before degrees became necessary to be a nurse.

Ah, I see what you mean. From what I can gather, though, SENs and SRNs currently need a degree.

[denphone]

Official NHS report shows the scale of the NHS's deepening staffing shortages.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...sing-vacancies

[Gavin78]

While I'm aware some companies do this there was an email went round a couple of weeks ago offering staff to take additional annual leave at a monthly cost spread over 12 months.

While this is great if you need the additional time. But considering the staffing levels are at breaking point I'm surprised they went with this. Perhaps £££ signs to increase or save NHS funds is what they are looking for.

The problem is like my ward they can't get suitable staff to do the job and just lately the turnover is worse than an agency.

We can't even get bank staff from other areas of the trust because the job is specialised so can only give bank/overtime to those that work within the role.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by denphone

Official NHS report shows the scale of the NHS's deepening staffing shortages.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...sing-vacancies

It not just the NHS that has problems.
Paying more in taxes doesn't solve anything as the Swedes will tell you.

“Not even children are spared in this crisis. At Stockholm's new Karolinska Hospital a third of the beds are empty and one in ten of the operations on children has been cancelled this year. ... The acute problem is the shortage of nurses. It is forcing hospitals to leave beds unused. ... Never before has so much money been allocated to the healthcare system, but it is being misused.
...
17 of Sweden's 21 county councils and regions are struggling to recruit enough nurses for the summer period, with hospital staff numbers set to be strained.

The fact that there are unfilled vacancies shows that money for the NHS ISN'T the problem. They must already have the money set aside in their budgets to fill those vacancies.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The fact that there are unfilled vacancies shows that money for the NHS ISN'T the problem. They must already have the money set aside in their budgets to fill those vacancies.

It doesn't. It shows that the money they have set aside is insufficient to retain and attract people to the profession.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It doesn't. It shows that the money they have set aside is insufficient to retain and attract people to the profession.

So what higher paying jobs are they going into? The required number of trained staff DO NOT EXIST, here and elsewhere in Europe.

Add to that an economic recession and more seniors requiring long-term care, and Europe may be facing a shortage of 1 million health professionals by 2020, according to a European Union Joint Action on Health Workforce Planning estimate.
...
It's actually bad all over: America, too, may have 1.2 million job openings for nurses, due to job growth and replacements, by 2020, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
...
In other countries, such as Germany, the shortage is particularly acute, and the immigration of health care workers from poorer economies even outside of Europe is becoming part of the solution.
"We expect a tremendous nursing shortage of about 500,000 people by 2030," said Professor Stefan Goerres, managing director of the Institute for Public Health and Health Care Research at the University of Bremen. "Even if the profession were more attractive, there just aren't enough young people due to declining birth rates."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...P=share_btn_fb

Seniors doctors from overseas who have been appointed to fill key roles in hospitals around the UK are being blocked from taking up their jobs by the Home Office because their NHS salaries are too low under immigration rules.

The Guardian has learned of at least 20 doctors prevented from taking up posts in departments including intensive care in the past two months, causing anger and bewilderment among already stretched doctors.

“It is simply lunatic,” said one consultant involved. “It is important to note that salaries haven’t changed and they are competitive. What’s changed is the Home Office’s threshold for granting visas.”

Don't see this improving the situation.

[denphone]

What happened to that old fashioned value of applying clear normal common sense?.