Home News Forum Articles
  Welcome back Join CF
You are here You are here: Home | Forum | AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most of the discussions, articles and other free features. By joining our Virgin Media community you will have full access to all discussions, be able to view and post threads, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own images/photos, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please join our community today.


Welcome to Cable Forum
Go Back   Cable Forum > General Discussion > Current Affairs

AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 19-09-2021, 00:10   #61
mrmistoffelees
067
 
mrmistoffelees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Middlesbrough
Age: 47
Services: Many
Posts: 4,585
mrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronze
mrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronze
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
So we upset the French ... we care why exactly ?
Well a cynical mind might think they could try to retaliate against the U.K. by other methods. One possible method could be with the French governments interests in Renault which has a subsequent controlling interest in Nissan
__________________
Nerves of steel, heart of gold, knob of butter......

Last edited by mrmistoffelees; 19-09-2021 at 00:13.
mrmistoffelees is online now   Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Old 19-09-2021, 09:49   #62
Chris
Trollsplatter
Cable Forum Team
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North of Watford
Services: Humane elimination of all common Internet pests
Posts: 36,870
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
Well a cynical mind might think they could try to retaliate against the U.K. by other methods. One possible method could be with the French governments interests in Renault which has a subsequent controlling interest in Nissan
That’s fanciful. And despite what they’ve been saying to their own voters over the weekend, French politicians aren’t going to escalate a diplomatic war with us because we, unlike Australia and the US, are their next door neighbour and they can’t afford the outright havoc that would cause.

Meanwhile, HMG is suggesting that there could be work in it for British shipyards. No detail on what, but it sounds like they’ll be pushing the Australians to buy additional equipment and maybe support vessels from us.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58613195

Eventually I suspect specialists from our own RN will be involved in training the Aussies on the operation of long-duration sub missions.
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 09:54   #63
Sephiroth
Simples
 
Sephiroth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: RG41
Services: 1 Gbps; Hub 4 MM; ASUS RT-AX88U; Ultimate VOLT. BT Infinity2; Devolo 1200AV
Posts: 11,955
Sephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny star
Sephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny star
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
Well a cynical mind might think they could try to retaliate against the U.K. by other methods. One possible method could be with the French governments interests in Renault which has a subsequent controlling interest in Nissan
.... and you'd be right if the French would be so pig headed as to ignore the impact on French car sales, including Nissan.
__________________
Seph.

My advice is at your risk.
Sephiroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 11:45   #64
Mick
Cable Forum Team
 
Mick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,115
Mick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny star
Mick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny starMick has a nice shiny star
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Latest: A French Minister declares Britain a ‘spare tyre’ in the AUKUS partnership.

These daily snowflake tears from the French are delicious.

Might come across as obnoxious, but they’re quite happy to steal our financial businesses and institutions and they were not exactly helpful during the corrupted EU exit negotiations.
Mick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 11:46   #65
mrmistoffelees
067
 
mrmistoffelees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Middlesbrough
Age: 47
Services: Many
Posts: 4,585
mrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronze
mrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronzemrmistoffelees is cast in bronze
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
That’s fanciful. And despite what they’ve been saying to their own voters over the weekend, French politicians aren’t going to escalate a diplomatic war with us because we, unlike Australia and the US, are their next door neighbour and they can’t afford the outright havoc that would cause.

Meanwhile, HMG is suggesting that there could be work in it for British shipyards. No detail on what, but it sounds like they’ll be pushing the Australians to buy additional equipment and maybe support vessels from us.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58613195

Eventually I suspect specialists from our own RN will be involved in training the Aussies on the operation of long-duration sub missions.
I did say it was cynical 🤣
__________________
Nerves of steel, heart of gold, knob of butter......
mrmistoffelees is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 13:41   #66
Hugh
laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
 
Hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 67
Services: Premiere Collection
Posts: 42,039
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Hugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden auraHugh has a golden aura
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Interesting view in the Times today about why France was less harsh towards the U.K. on this matter.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...efd4159d3e470c
Quote:
Both US and UK diplomats have questioned why the French did not recall the UK ambassador — was it aimed at making Britain seem insignificant or, as those in the UK government claim, was it because the UK and French relationship is so strong?

If the French want revenge, they could seek to punish Britain in other ways. They could escalate the migrant crisis in the Channel, for example.

The French may also want to preserve their relationship with the British because America’s “tilt” towards the Pacific leaves the two European nations more reliant on each other to tackle Russia and counter-terrorism in the Middle East and Africa.

Britain and France have had a bilateral defence agreement for more than a decade.

In 2010, both countries signed two Lancaster House treaties — the first a defence and security agreement centred on closer cooperation between the countries’ armed forces and the second on cooperation on nuclear weapons security, stockpiles, and nuclear and radiological counterterrorism.

Both British and French personnel have also agreed to carry out operations together under the newly formed Combined Joint Expeditionary Force (CJEF), an Anglo-French force that can rapidly deploy more than 10,000 personnel for a range of tasks including peacekeeping and disaster relief.

“We are already side by side in so many things,” said a government source. “It is not in ours or France’s interest to militarily fall out”.
__________________
There is always light.
If only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it
.
If my post is in bold and this colour, it's a Moderator Request.
Hugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 13:49   #67
OLD BOY
Rise above the players
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wokingham
Services: 2 V6 boxes with 360 software, Now, ITVX, Amazon, Netflix, Lionsgate+, Apple+, Disney+, Paramount +,
Posts: 14,568
OLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronze
OLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronze
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
Well a cynical mind might think they could try to retaliate against the U.K. by other methods. One possible method could be with the French governments interests in Renault which has a subsequent controlling interest in Nissan
Of maybe Aukus was our cynical attempt to pay Macron back for the Brexit difficulties he is causing us.

Sooner or later, France will see that it’s better to be friends with us than be our enemy. Hopefully, cool heads and common sense will prevail.
__________________
Forumbox.co.uk
OLD BOY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 13:55   #68
Sephiroth
Simples
 
Sephiroth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: RG41
Services: 1 Gbps; Hub 4 MM; ASUS RT-AX88U; Ultimate VOLT. BT Infinity2; Devolo 1200AV
Posts: 11,955
Sephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny star
Sephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny star
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Of maybe Aukus was our cynical attempt to pay Macron back for the Brexit difficulties he is causing us.

Sooner or later, France will see that it’s better to be friends with us than be our enemy. Hopefully, cool heads and common sense will prevail.
Quote:
Or maybe Aukus was our cynical attempt to pay Macron back for the Brexit difficulties he is causing us.
I think AUKUS was appealing on many fronts.

Quote:
Sooner or later, France will see that it’s better to be friends with us than be our enemy. Hopefully, cool heads and common sense will prevail.
There I have my doubts. Macron will always seek to stiff the UK.

__________________
Seph.

My advice is at your risk.
Sephiroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 13:58   #69
OLD BOY
Rise above the players
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wokingham
Services: 2 V6 boxes with 360 software, Now, ITVX, Amazon, Netflix, Lionsgate+, Apple+, Disney+, Paramount +,
Posts: 14,568
OLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronze
OLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronzeOLD BOY is cast in bronze
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
I think AUKUS was appealing on many fronts.



There I have my doubts. Macron will always seek to stiff the UK.

Macron is a dead man walking, electorally speaking.
__________________
Forumbox.co.uk
OLD BOY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 14:02   #70
Sephiroth
Simples
 
Sephiroth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: RG41
Services: 1 Gbps; Hub 4 MM; ASUS RT-AX88U; Ultimate VOLT. BT Infinity2; Devolo 1200AV
Posts: 11,955
Sephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny star
Sephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny starSephiroth has a nice shiny star
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Macron is a dead man walking, electorally speaking.
Yes, but his successor won't have got many votes by extolling the Franco/British defence treaty.
__________________
Seph.

My advice is at your risk.
Sephiroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 15:40   #71
Chris
Trollsplatter
Cable Forum Team
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North of Watford
Services: Humane elimination of all common Internet pests
Posts: 36,870
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Interesting view in the Times today about why France was less harsh towards the U.K. on this matter.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...efd4159d3e470c
Yup … in so many words, this is the position expressed by HMG - the UK and France rely on each other and we can’t afford to fall out. So the French will do nothing because there’s nothing they can do, then tell their electorate they’re doing nothing because we’re not important enough.
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-09-2021, 21:45   #72
Damien
Remoaner
Cable Forum Team
 
Damien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,206
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Damien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver blingDamien has a lot of silver bling
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

But again it is also in our interests to help France where possible.

The two nations share military operations and have broader similar geopolitical interests. Oftentimes more aligned which each other than America. This incident aside it's infuriating how the politicians of both nations seem to approach the relationship with such antagonism.

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Macron is a dead man walking, electorally speaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
Yes, but his successor won't have got many votes by extolling the Franco/British defence treaty.
Unless the Républicains manage to make inroads or Mélenchon has an unexpected surge the final round of the Presidental Election is Le Pen vs Macron. In that event, Macron is going to have a tough election but is still the favourite.

He is, at the moment, far from a 'dead man walking' electorally. He is competitive. Hollande was a deadman walking electorally last time.
Damien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-09-2021, 15:38   #73
TheDaddy
cf.mega pornstar
 
TheDaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,782
TheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden aura
TheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden auraTheDaddy has a golden aura
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post

Perhaps it’s a further case in point: that when it comes to it, France needs to keep Britain close more than it needs to prove a diplomatic point. Funny, that.
Perhaps or perhaps it's a sign of our standing in the world at the moment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Indeed.

However it’s important not to get hung up on the who said what and who’s right or wrong in this case - this really isn’t a story of a supplier/customer relationship breakdown. There has been political pressure in Australia for its navy to access nuclear sub technology for some time now, because it is very obvious the strategic naval threat comes from China which has nuclear subs. You can’t effectively counter a sub that can remain underwater for 3 months with one that can barely manage 3 weeks. The wrangling over the Australian-French contract will be an interesting sideshow but arguments over who said what to who shouldn’t cloud the important fact, which is that Australia suddenly has a way to acquire and control technology that 5 years ago it simply didn’t think it could get access to.

As far as I can see, the Oz Admiralty never looked too seriously at procuring a nuclear fleet when they were in the market for new boats prior to 2016. That could have been due to cost but it is more likely something to do with technology transfer. You don’t have sovereign control over your subs if you have to return them to the country of manufacture every time they need service or repair. We know that the defunct French deal mandated a great deal of component manufacturing to take place in Australia. There’s no doubt Australia could have maintained its French diesel-electric subs in its own yards, especially if the critical components could be manufactured locally. I strongly suspect that in 2016 nobody was prepared to sign a technology transfer deal with Australia that would allow them to fully maintain nuclear subs domestically. (Just such a deal was signed between Britain and the US before we finally committed to buy the F-35, allowing us to do all maintenance and repair domestically, even on the most sensitive aspects of its systems).

There is now a compelling strategic case for Australia to have access to this technology that Britain has made to the US and the US has agreed to. For Australia to be able to assemble US-designed nuclear subs in Australian yards means they have signed a tech transfer agreement, which is no small matter (the F-35 deal was held up for months by Congressional demands for some extremely detailed assurances about our ability to guard American military secrets).
This compelling strategic case isn't a pressing concern though, iirc these boats won't be ready till 2040 so providing the Chinese don't try anything till then all will be well.

---------- Post added at 14:38 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Yup … in so many words, this is the position expressed by HMG - the UK and France rely on each other and we can’t afford to fall out. So the French will do nothing because there’s nothing they can do, then tell their electorate they’re doing nothing because we’re not important enough.
They could tell pretti Patel to stick the migrant deal and even more actively help them across the water, might not be a bad thing if they did tbh, at least then the pretense would be removed
__________________
Sports Babble
TheDaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-09-2021, 15:46   #74
Chris
Trollsplatter
Cable Forum Team
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North of Watford
Services: Humane elimination of all common Internet pests
Posts: 36,870
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
Perhaps or perhaps it's a sign of our standing in the world at the moment



This compelling strategic case isn't a pressing concern though, iirc these boats won't be ready till 2040 so providing the Chinese don't try anything till then all will be well.

---------- Post added at 14:38 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------



They could tell pretti Patel to stick the migrant deal and even more actively help them across the water, might not be a bad thing if they did tbh, at least then the pretense would be removed
AUKUS allows the Australians to lease nuclear powered subs from either the Yanks or us (in reality, most likely the US) while their own fleet is being built. Morrison is meeting Biden to discuss it this week.

https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-a...box=1632085145
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-09-2021, 16:56   #75
1andrew1
cf.mega poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,187
1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze
1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze1andrew1 is cast in bronze
Re: AUKUS Strategic nuclear submarine pact

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Macron is a dead man walking, electorally speaking.
On what basis do you come to that conclusion? Is it wishful thinking?

Quote:
From Paddypower:
Emmanuel Macron 4/6
Marine Le Pen 3/1
Xavier Bertrand 4/1
Eric Zemmour 14/1
Michel Barnier 18/1
https://www.paddypower.com/politics/french-politics
1andrew1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:28.


Server: osmium.zmnt.uk
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.