Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[tech team]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Can it please be clarified that opt out is a complete opt out and not simply we don't see the adverts but our browsing is still being farmed ??. Thats the most important thing for me i am sure your a nice guy and all but i would trust saddam hussein more then phorm sorry but it's how i feel.

Hi RizzyKing, Yes. Opt out is a total opt out. If you have opted out no browsing data will be passed from your ISP to phorm for any purposes. None at all. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Techteam


Hi all,

I am trying to get to all of the posts so please bear with me. Working from ahardie up:
sorry but this is classic auditor language -- they have to add these caveats. If we were to boil down the essence of the report, what E&Y have confirmed, after thoroughly checking our systems and controls, is that all of the privacy claims (see our website) we make are true. Similarly, 80/20 Thinking's MD (Privacy International's Simon Davies) has acknowleged that "Phorm does advance the whole sector of protecting personal information by two to three steps." (see bbc online piece today). I know two or three steps may seem small, but in the context of an online world where searches, browsing histories and IP addresses are stored for months on end, we think not storing any of that data is a big step forward.
Best wishes

Techteam

[Shin Gouki]

If there is a complete Opt Out it will come at a price imo.

They are'nt going to let people just opt out without efing them over some way.

[tech team]

Hi -- to confirm, the BBC is not part of OIX as it does not carry advertising. OIX will only serve ads into existing ad slots onto websites that partner with us. I wanted to clear that up earlier!

Best wishes,
Techteam

Originally Posted by tech team

I am trying to get to all of the posts so please bear with me. Working from ahardie up:
sorry but this is classic auditor language -- they have to add these caveats.

Techteam

That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification. I think some of the other forum members are going to be harder to convince though.

[tech team]

Originally Posted by Shin Gouki

If there is a complete Opt Out it will come at a price imo.

They are'nt going to let people just opt out without efing them over some way.

Hi Shin Gouki,

Just to reiterate, opt out is total opt out. Your internet experience will be as it is today. You'll still see ads but they will be untargeted and there won't be an additional layer of anti-fraud protection. There have been some questions posted about how our protection differs from existing offerings. Our offering is network based so it means no download for users. Users are warned in real time as they browse to fraudulent site and given the choice to continue or go to their homepage -- necessary if a user has clicked on a fraudulent email. We are not over claiming for our fraud protection -- it's another useful layer of protection for users that's free and protects in real time.

Techteam

[brundles]

Originally Posted by tech team

Hi RizzyKing, Yes. Opt out is a total opt out. If you have opted out no browsing data will be passed from your ISP to phorm for any purposes. None at all. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Techteam

But to clarify that, it may not leave the ISP, but it WILL have been processed by Phorms servers and applications that are located on ISP premises connected up INSIDE the ISPs network.

Would that be accurate?

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by tech team

You might be interested in the video piece on techcrunch today:
http://uk.techcrunch.com/2008/03/06/...ther-tracking/

No doubt it will raise as many questions as it answers. Mike (who started all the excellent debate in the first place) I'll drop you a line to see if you'd like to come in to see us or have a chat with our CEO or tech team.

Best wishes,
techteam (techteam@phorm.com)

Thanks for that link - I've just watched the video in it's entirety, and I would recommend others here to give it a whirl. I'm still not convinced as to the security of this system, but some of the information provided was interesting: questions about server locations, opt-outs and Mr. Ertugrul's past businesses were asked and answered (although he did look mightily nervous during some of it).
Some advice to the companies involved here: it was a BIG mistake to announce the deal to introduce this system and then leave a complete information vacuum until closer to roll-out time. People in the UK DO care about their privacy and security and it seems that someone, somewhere made an assumption that nobody would kick-up much of a fuss about this, so we don't need to trouble them with any details about how it will work or what it will do. WRONG!!

Originally Posted by lucevans

Some advice to the companies involved here: it was a BIG mistake to announce the deal to introduce this system and then leave a complete information vacuum until closer to roll-out time. People in the UK DO care about their privacy and security and it seems that someone, somewhere made an assumption that nobody would kick-up much of a fuss about this, so we don't need to trouble them with any details about how it will work or what it will do. WRONG!!

That's got to be one of the most sensible things I have read in this thread. They wouldn't have allayed everybody's fears but they could have cleared up a lot of the confusion.

[Toto]

Just waiting for some answers.

[none]

Originally Posted by tech team

if you are not opted in, no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm

You say this, but come on now, we both know that’s deliberately ambiguous. Ive noticed you have neglected to answer not just on this board but others too, the question of what data gets passed TO and FROM Phorm once a user opts out (and believe me there will be plenty of them!).

Its fine saying that once opted out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm (i.e. returned data from a webpage) but what you don’t seem to want to answer is whether any data is SENT to Phorm in the first place (i.e. the initial request for said webpage)

So for example If I am opted out (via your lousy cookie), does any data sent FROM my machine go through Phorm systems or servers (at ANY stage) in order to load a web page, send an email or IM. It’s a simple enough question, but please be as technical as you like when replying.

Or >>

If opted out, does the data requested (FOR a webpage for example) bypass ALL Phorm technology and thus route itself ENTIRELY though my ISP’s servers only (just as it would be if you were not to exist).

Or (as I suspect) >>

Does some/any/all data sent FROM a user go through Phorm at some stage in order to REQUEST a web page, send an email or IM, even if the user is opted out.

In essence, what I'm asking is this, does OUTBOUND traffic still go through Phorm (at ANY stage) in order to reach it destination even if the user is opted out?



You see, to put it bluntly, I don’t trust you and so it would seem that over 95% of members who have voted here are also inclined to agree. In short WE DO NOT WANT OR NEED PHORM, not now not ever.

Dressing this up as of ‘benefit to the user’ under the guise of so called security is frankly insulting. So know this, I like many others will fight this to the bitter end, how ever long it takes.

Phight Phorm and take back what is rightfully yours...your privacy!

[tech team]

Hi lucevans,

I do take the comments on the chin. We spent a long time preparing websites and flash animations and feeling like we really had an information hub about our systems and products. We didn't get enough information out there (here, for example).

I should stress it has nothing to do with complacency about how people feel about their privacy. Quite the contrary. We spent a long time developing technology, systems and practices that are acutely privacy friendly so we're very happy to have the opportunity to explain that and engage.

Best wishes

techteam

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:48 ----------

No. If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm. I really hope that's clear.

Originally Posted by none

<SNIP>

none, whilst you are entitled to your opinions so is everyone else and Phorm have been given the oportunity to answer questions and I expect questions to be asked in a sensible and amicable manner.

[SMHarman]

Could you provide system diagrams and show who's hardware, software, data exchanges occur, opted in and out for say the an input to googles search page of
John Doe, 1 Main Street, Anywhereville, 90210, or the same input to FT.com search box (who I believe is opted in to OIX).

[lucevans]

Sorry - just one more question, having read your revised FAQs on www.webwise.com -

Given that I have blocked all communication with OIX.net at router-level am I correct in following assumptions:
1) No Phorm/webwise/OIX-related cookie containing a randomly-generated anonymous user ID can possibly be stored on my computer
2) When I request webpages over the VM network, the Phorm hardware in the VM network still analyzes the content of the pages I request, but because my computer does not contain an anonymous ID cookie, the Phorm or VM hardware is unable to save any category information to the Phorm server (in the VM network) because it does not have an anonymous ID to assign them to.
3) Therefore, there will be no anonymous user ID record on the VM or Phorm servers related to the content of any pages my computer has requested over the VM network.

[Sirius]

Can i have it in writing by your company that NONE of my data if i OPT OUT will EVER be seen by you or your agents or your customers or infact anyone connected in any way with your company. or you equipment in the head-ends and pop sites of VIRGIN MEDIA and that Virgin Media will NEVER see any of my browsing or other private information if i OPT OUT.. Also for HOW long does the OPT OUT last. ?????

Finally you tried this without informing any of the poor BT customers last year. How can we trust you when you have done this without informing people and giving them the chance to OPT OUT. You were court doing this last year by users of BT. ????