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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 22-03-2008, 01:52   #1621
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

remember people, we have this: tell your friends, use it.
“UK consumers wake up to privacy”
link: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/pressreleases/2008/information_rights_press_release_final1.pdf
For a copy of the ‘Data Protection Guide for Dummies’ please go to http://www.ico.gov.uk
Our data protection rights
• An organisation should tell you what it is going to do with your information before you provide any details unless this is obvious

• Your information should only be used for the reason it was collected in the first place (unless you give your consent to your information being used in other ways)

• An organisation should not collect any information which is unnecessary. You only need to provide the basic information which is required to deliver the service required

• Your information should be kept accurate and up to date – if you ask any organisation to make changes to your details, it should do this

• An organisation should not keep your details if they are no longer needed

• An organisation must provide you with copies of all information held on you - if you ask. You can also ask an organisation to stop using your personal information if it is causing you damage or distress or if you wish to stop it being used for marketing purposes.

• An organisation must keep your personal information secure at all times

• An organisation should not transfer your personal details to another country unless adequate data protection arrangements are in place.
and then it goes on to say….

David Smith said: “For any of us to have trust in an organisation we must be confident that our information is held securely and processed in line with data protection rules.

If we all regularly start to ask the right questions then organisations will respond to public demand and take the protection of our personal information more seriously.

If organisations fail to recognise the importance of data protection they not only risk losing business. They could also face action from the ICO.”
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Old 22-03-2008, 02:56   #1622
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucevans View Post
VM, I strongly suggest you stop using that phrase "keep their internet experience just as it is now" because it ****** your customers off when you patronize them like that.

Oh, sure, on the surface, it may appear that our internet experience hasn't changed when we opt-out of Phorm (after all, we'll still get the pages we asked for, and no Phorm targeted ads), but behind the scenes, all of our web browsing is still being re-routed through the profilers (and no, I don't care that you promise "not to relay any information outside the VM network")

Stop treating your customers like mugs: we realise that you intend to still profile our data even if we "opt-out" and even if you honour your claim not to pass profile information on to Phorm, you can still quite easily use that information for other "internal" purposes, and I do not agree to my data being used in any such way.
one question which seems to not been asked is if a person opts out. Phorm still intending to use a mirror for profiling. If I opted out and they say I will NOT get adverts during browsing or see these adverts Why the heck do they still need to profile opted out people.

I wish one these PR persons Answers that million dollar question. No-one thought about this.

What will they get out of this profiling if we wish Not to get spammed with online adverts.

I think you start to think covertly whats intended.

So will they be able to get our names & address from the ISP if not they do trace attacks. In the end they would likely find our hometown, our address and you can bet phorm will give us snail targeted junk or even targeted email once its known.

I cant think why else would they want to still profile an opted out individual. It makes absolute no sense for phorm to even want to profile opted out people. The only other conclusion is for spy reasons Government etc or hacking purposes.
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Old 22-03-2008, 03:07   #1623
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mertle View Post
.... I cant think why else would they want to still profile an opted out individual. It makes absolute no sense for phorm to even want to profile opted out people. The only other conclusion is for spy reasons Government etc or hacking purposes.
Maybe to make it easier to serve ads if an opted-out user has a brain-dead moment and changes their mind and opts in at a later date?
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Old 22-03-2008, 03:25   #1624
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

ill repeate:
NO company can lawfully collect, profile,store or export your personal data without your consent to do so, under the DPA....

---------- Post added at 02:25 ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 ----------

ohh 27
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Old 22-03-2008, 10:27   #1625
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by popper View Post
ill repeate:
NO company can lawfully collect, profile,store or export your personal data without your consent to do so, under the DPA....
Unfortunately, legally all that would be needed for our consent, is a change in the T&C and notification that the T&C had changed, and then our continued use of the service.

I am aware from postings here that an advisory group has opinioned that this is not sufficient in their view, and that explicit consent should be sought. There is also the argument that web sites haven't agreed to an interception of their pages (and if the site is password protected may have their own T&C that forbids interception), but there is also a counter-argument to this. Has any of this been tested in court, I doubt it.

I also very much dislike web based T&C, such as Virgin Media's T&C, because they are put onto web sites, without any form of checksum and independent way of verifying that the contents have not changed. If we don't already do so, we should be saving the T&C and AUP to files on our hard drive to be able to later verify what has changed. (I bet most of us haven't!)
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Old 22-03-2008, 11:38   #1626
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by flowrebmit View Post
Unfortunately, legally all that would be needed for our consent, is a change in the T&C and notification that the T&C had changed, and then our continued use of the service.

I am aware from postings here that an advisory group has opinioned that this is not sufficient in their view, and that explicit consent should be sought. There is also the argument that web sites haven't agreed to an interception of their pages (and if the site is password protected may have their own T&C that forbids interception), but there is also a counter-argument to this. Has any of this been tested in court, I doubt it.

I also very much dislike web based T&C, such as Virgin Media's T&C, because they are put onto web sites, without any form of checksum and independent way of verifying that the contents have not changed. If we don't already do so, we should be saving the T&C and AUP to files on our hard drive to be able to later verify what has changed. (I bet most of us haven't!)
When I first joined I did print mine out but it was over 20 pages of legal talk that seemed to cotriudict itself later on. I did finaly throw this away after they kept changing them. I have had at least one copy sent through the post but this was a few years back and print so small you need a page magnifier to read it or telescope.
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Old 22-03-2008, 14:29   #1627
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by flowrebmit View Post
Unfortunately, legally all that would be needed for our consent, is a change in the T&C and notification that the T&C had changed, and then our continued use of the service.

I am aware from postings here that an advisory group has opinioned that this is not sufficient in their view, and that explicit consent should be sought. There is also the argument that web sites haven't agreed to an interception of their pages (and if the site is password protected may have their own T&C that forbids interception), but there is also a counter-argument to this. Has any of this been tested in court, I doubt it.

I also very much dislike web based T&C, such as Virgin Media's T&C, because they are put onto web sites, without any form of checksum and independent way of verifying that the contents have not changed. If we don't already do so, we should be saving the T&C and AUP to files on our hard drive to be able to later verify what has changed. (I bet most of us haven't!)
I always think T&C's are sham. You cant exactly say no and still use the item. How many times can you legally buy a piece software and say NO and still install it.

OF1975 Could be but it still strange action if they are to only keep this data the length they say. It also lays into mistrust of the whole system.

If we forget, accidently or even malware deletes the opt out we can be done.

I still think if they want to claim they are honest there is NO need for opted out to have there data mirrored still. It slimy way to run things.

Then again pc industry done it for years like the T&C's you have to be forced to accept if you want to use the purchase you bought.

You cant read often the T&C's before purchase either.
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Old 22-03-2008, 15:57   #1628
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Florence, I think it took me somewhere in the order of 2.5 hrs to complete the online order for VM BB, because I spent sometime trying to read the T&C and AUP.

Mertle, they may indeed feel biased towards the supplier, but it is still worth reading the clauses that cover things like the length of lock-in to the service, any penalty payments for leaving early, etc, so that you know what you are about to buy. Also I think the consumer does have some protection against unfair clauses in contracts - things could apparently be a lot worse.

Agree entirely about the situation with shrink wrap and T&C. We could also add some software is not Fit for purpose.
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Old 22-03-2008, 17:22   #1629
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Hi Everyone

I'm a new member of this forum and I confess I haven't read every single message concerning this contentious issue. Please forgive me if I cover a topic that has already been exhausted.

CW's decision to sign up with Phorm was regrettable. However, they should be given some credit for giving a relatively prompt assurance that they will not mirror, intercept or permit Phorm surveillance of data unless the customer concerned actively chooses to opt in.

Virgin's vague marketing type statement about customers being able to keep their Internet experience just as it is now simply isn't good enough. Virgin need to make some clear unambiguous statements that properly address all the legitimate concerns put to them by their customers. Perhaps, Virgin would do well to consider the potential damage caused by a further erosion of customer confidence if they continue their deafening silence on this topic.

Does anyone have any idea of what Virgin's obligations are concerning their "provisional" contract with Phorm? It would be helpful to know what they mean by provisional and whether or not they could become liable to pay damages for breach of contract.
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Old 22-03-2008, 18:09   #1630
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by popper View Post
post it up, and we can all refine it, order it and lay out a clear message, then when it covers all the points needed we can all set a date and everyone posts it in collaberation all together, that would get someones attention surely.

you know like santa clause (section this, of the so and so act) season.

Ohh and dont forget to include the EU in any of this, theres plenty of law there we can put forward too, not just UK legislation.

what does the EU data Commissioner think of all this ?, remembering he made it quite clear the other month,your IP address is personal data.

plenty to consider, not least commercial piracy, everyone in govt likes to talk about that dont they.

sounds a good idea
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Old 22-03-2008, 18:15   #1631
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogermevans View Post
sounds a good idea
If i receive the same answer as this from the registered letter i sent then i will be sending a non compliance letter to the data protection registrar. They have NOT addressed the request that I made in my letter and email and therefor in my eye's are in NON Compliance.


Quote:
Hello sirius

REFERENCE : 2744791

Thank you for your e-mail dated 20 March 2008 regarding Phorm and Virgin
Media.

I understand your concerns and would like to thank you for your
feedback, however I must stress that although Virgin Media have signed a
provisional agreement with Phorm, we still have a lot of work to do in
evaluating various aspects of any possible deployment. As a result, it
may be some months before we are in a position to confirm how and when
the solution will be implemented.

We will of course be communicating our intentions openly and
transparently and will be letting all our customers know before rolling
out the Webwise solution and we'll clearly explain how the system works.


Ultimately customers will not be forced to use the system and will be
able to keep their Internet experience just as it is now should they
wish.


For more information please see the following link:
http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/webwise.php

Thank you for contacting us.
If you have further queries regarding this matter or any other issue,
please use the link provided below:

www.virginmedia.com/contact

Please note if you reply directly to this e-mail your response will not
be received.

Kind regards


Andrew Mather
E-Contact Team
Virgin Media
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Old 22-03-2008, 18:54   #1632
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Sirius,

Although we haven't seen what you sent them, and although I agree with what you want, I can't see how VM can be guilty of non-compliance at this time. Non-compliance of what? Phorm isn't live, nor do VM know when it will go live, or even how they are going to implement it, or even if they are going to implement it!

How can someone be guilty in the present, of a possible non-compliance of something that may or may not happen, in a presently unknown way at some unknown time in the future?

They can't.
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Old 22-03-2008, 19:01   #1633
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by manx minx View Post
Sirius,

Although we haven't seen what you sent them, and although I agree with what you want, I can't see how VM can be guilty of non-compliance at this time. Non-compliance of what? Phorm isn't live, nor do VM know when it will go live, or even how they are going to implement it, or even if they are going to implement it!

How can someone guilty in the present, of a possible non-compliance of something that may or may not happen, in a presently unknown way at some unknown time in the future?

They can't.
I asked them to confirm that they had received and noted on my account the fact that i do not, will not and have not given them permission to use my data or to pass my data through a profiling device. I asked them to confirm that they had done this even if they have not started to profile. They have not confirmed at this time that they has carried out my request to update my account notes.

The fact that they sent a standard ******** letter is what has annoyed me the most. They could not even be bothered to answer any of the questions that was asked and they did not carry out my instructions

When i issue a NON compliance i will also request a complete copy of my account information as stored on there computers. I will pay them the £10.00 that is needed for that.

The whole point of my letter is to let them understand that we as customers will not role over and allow them to sell our private data to a company that is in my eye's nothing more than a spywere company that i have been infected by before in there previous life as 121 media..
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Old 22-03-2008, 19:11   #1634
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Knew I did the right thing I abandon ship Bt line here this Friday ASAP sign up to ADSL supplier who has assured me they have no intentions of joining phorm since owner also uses the network and he wouldn't like his clicks watched and profiled..
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Old 22-03-2008, 19:31   #1635
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by flowrebmit View Post
Unfortunately, legally all that would be needed for our consent, is a change in the T&C and notification that the T&C had changed, and then our continued use of the service.

I am aware from postings here that an advisory group has opinioned that this is not sufficient in their view, and that explicit consent should be sought.

There is also the argument that web sites haven't agreed to an interception of their pages (and if the site is password protected may have their own T&C that forbids interception), but there is also a counter-argument to this. Has any of this been tested in court, I doubt it.

I also very much dislike web based T&C, such as Virgin Media's T&C, because they are put onto web sites, without any form of checksum and independent way of verifying that the contents have not changed.

If we don't already do so, we should be saving the T&C and AUP to files on our hard drive to be able to later verify what has changed. (I bet most of us haven't!)
hence the reason you are wise to send that registered data protection act Notice laying out how they can use your Personal data from that point on.

if you want to be padantic, every time they change the T&C , you simply re-send a Notice referencing the original and stating its still in effect.

your DPA Notice always overrides any change regarding personal data they might place in the T&C at any point...

your data, your rules, and how they may or not, use any part of your property.

---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence View Post
Knew I did the right thing I abandon ship Bt line here this Friday ASAP sign up to ADSL supplier who has assured me they have no intentions of joining phorm since owner also uses the network and he wouldn't like his clicks watched and profiled..
and remember Florence, if and when you sign that paper contract, read the T&C, crossout and inital any clause you dont like.

you can even add any clauses you might want and once you sign it, and the company rep signs and witnesses it, they activate and you use the service , thats it, contract confirmed, remember people , that signed T&C works for both partys
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