Coronavirus

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Lived experience, you’re a bit late to the party jumping on that expression.

“Lived Experience” (what other experience is there?) Is subjective. It is a persons perception of an event. A report must deal in facts and only facts.

I don’t deny their experience, but it comes with an articulated lorry full of bias.

If I was in court, I would not want to be convicted on how someone felt. This inquiry could indeed lead to more serious actions if it is found that anyone was criminally negligent.

So, I don’t deny their “lived experience” I just don’t factor it, into any report.

Well, presumably you don’t factor it into any report because nobody is asking you to produce any report.

Which is probably useful given your inherent bias against witness statements outlined above.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Well, presumably you don’t factor it into any report because nobody is asking you to produce any report.

Which is probably useful given your inherent bias against witness statements outlined above.

And 1st prize to “ignore everything from anyone else and plough on with my own agenda even though I’ve just been called out”………..goes to you. Congrats!

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

And 1st prize to “ignore everything from anyone else and plough on with my own agenda even though I’ve just been called out”………..goes to you. Congrats!

Oh no Pierre I couldn’t possibly take your prize off of you. The tireless effort you’ve put in over the last two years merits it.

It’s quite funny seeing you accuse me of something you provide an excellent demonstration of a mere three posts ago.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Oh no Pierre I couldn’t possibly take your prize off of you

I insist

It’s quite funny seeing you accuse me of something you provide an excellent demonstration of a mere three posts ago.

I’m all ears….or eyes……..lay it out for me, so my granny would understand.

[jfman]

No need, Pierre. The thread will only become ever more tedious.

I welcome the public inquiry being taken forward in the traditional form. Witness statements, expert evidence, documents in the public record and trying to establish facts in that way rather than dismissing potentially uncomfortable evidence out of hand.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

No need, Pierre. The thread will only become ever more tedious.

I insist

I welcome the public inquiry being taken forward in the traditional form. Witness statements, expert evidence, documents in the public record and trying to establish facts in that way rather than dismissing potentially uncomfortable evidence out of hand.

Facts! You want facts now? Well it’s good you now ask for facts instead of feelings and lived experience.

You can twist better than Chubby Checker.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I insist

Facts! You want facts now? Well it’s good you now ask for facts instead of feelings and lived experience.

You can twist better than Chubby Checker.

Ah bless, Pierre.

Had you not selectively interpreted my initial post (a severe challenge you your “debating” style I know) I already acknowledged the importance of documentary evidence alongside witness statements.

[nffc]

I notice Hunt is now playing "Captain Hindsight" about lockdowns (reported in several places but this was the first on google):

“I actually thought we could have avoided all lockdowns if we had been much quicker and set up test and trace as they did in South Korea and Taiwan. Those two places actually didn’t have any lockdowns in 2020.
“That would’ve been my preferred route.”

Nothing wrong, in principle, with what he said - except for that we had nothing like the required T&T system at all, certainly not on the scale needed, and certainly not on the scale they had already in the Far East, as a former HS he would know this of course. And even then we had enough issues getting tests in that we were only able to test hospital admissions for months on end, all through the first "lockdown".



So how can you apply a T&T system in the community where it has to be, with insufficient tests and not the capacity to do the required contact tracing - in an environment where you're using this to avoid lockdown restrictions and so people are also able to do what they want (and so may not even know their contacts)? It's just sounding like point scoring. The idea is sensible in itself but it works best off a low infection rate (to keep the numbers down) and if you have the kit to do it.


Though the fundamental idea of isolating those with the virus (and either isolating close contacts or telling them to be vigilant/take tests) whilst allowing everyone else to carry on unimpeded is sensible, it does rely on knowing who has the virus.


Also, I don't recall him saying this at the time - probably because it contradicted the "group think" and banging pans to save the NHS which was going on around this time 2 years back.

[jfman]

You’re stating that as if Government couldn’t have intervened to create testing capacity at an earlier stage (e.g. the wasted weeks pushing the scientifically disproven herd immunity) - something Hunt as PM (the hypothetical scenario he was offered in the interview) would presumably have some authority to push forward.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-policy.html

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...aster-11965201

A quick Google search throws up Hunt calling for community testing in March 2020, so I think the “Captain Hindsight” insult is unfair in this case. It’s in the nature of the question he was asked and he himself acknowledges the chances are he would have made different mistakes.

[nomadking]

The chemicals required for testing were in short supply around the world.
South Korea wasn't initially testing everybody and the people were ok with what was required for Tracing purposes.

This includes enforcing a law that grants the government wide authority to access data: CCTV footage, GPS tracking data from phones and cars, credit card transactions, immigration entry information, and other personal details of people confirmed to have an infectious disease. The authorities can then make some of this public, so anyone who may have been exposed can get themselves - or their friends and family members - tested.
In addition to helping work out who to test, South Korea’s data-driven system helps hospitals manage their pipeline of cases. People found positive are placed in self-quarantine and monitored remotely through a smartphone app, or checked regularly in telephone calls, until a hospital bed becomes available.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

You’re stating that as if Government couldn’t have intervened to create testing capacity at an earlier stage (e.g. the wasted weeks pushing the scientifically disproven herd immunity) - something Hunt as PM (the hypothetical scenario he was offered in the interview) would presumably have some authority to push forward.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-policy.html

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...aster-11965201

A quick Google search throws up Hunt calling for community testing in March 2020, so I think the “Captain Hindsight” insult is unfair in this case. It’s in the nature of the question he was asked and he himself acknowledges the chances are he would have made different mistakes.

You are creating the impression that the title of Captain Hindsight should be passed to you.

I must say that you are a very strong candidate and you have my support. Don't say I never do anything for you!

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

You’re stating that as if Government couldn’t have intervened to create testing capacity at an earlier stage (e.g. the wasted weeks pushing the scientifically disproven herd immunity) - something Hunt as PM (the hypothetical scenario he was offered in the interview) would presumably have some authority to push forward.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-policy.html

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...aster-11965201

A quick Google search throws up Hunt calling for community testing in March 2020, so I think the “Captain Hindsight” insult is unfair in this case. It’s in the nature of the question he was asked and he himself acknowledges the chances are he would have made different mistakes.

Whatever the rights and wrongs, I think the government threw everything into this, and those who criticise the initiatives what went wrong are simply Gogglewatch commentators who aren’t much good at anything else.

The government did what they could, and with the Astro Zeneca vaccine - well, they pulled a blinder.

And all you can do is criticise. Thank God you weren’t in charge! We’d still be hiding under the stairs!

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You are creating the impression that the title of Captain Hindsight should be passed to you.

I must say that you are a very strong candidate and you have my support. Don't say I never do anything for you!

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------



Whatever the rights and wrongs, I think the government threw everything into this, and those who criticise the initiatives what went wrong are simply Gogglewatch commentators who aren’t much good at anything else.

The government did what they could, and with the Astro Zeneca vaccine - well, they pulled a blinder.

And all you can do is criticise. Thank God you weren’t in charge! We’d still be hiding under the stairs!

Less of your nonsense, OB. Anyone can see that I’ve simply interjecting - ironically to defend a Conservative politician - to show that he had been pushing for a mass testing strategy early on in the pandemic.

I’m not sure you’ll find a post where I advocate hiding under stairs. I can find plenty of yours pushing much discredited “herd immunity”. How’s that coming along?

What’s the Astro Zeneca vaccine do they give that to spacemen to counter the effects of radiation up there?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

<SNIP>

I’m not sure you’ll find a post where I advocate hiding under stairs. I can find plenty of yours pushing much discredited “herd immunity”. How’s that coming along?

<SNIP>

I used to believe in "herd immunity" but now I understand it a lot better. It's the loose term "immunity" that provides the fertile ground for dispute.

In this Covid context, either of being vaccinated or part of the community who have suffered Covid, apply. In other words you've got antibodies.

The experts can correct me as necessary, but immunity from infection does not occur. "Immunity" from hospitalisation is likely.

Vaccination of a whole population provides "herd immunity" to the extent I've stated above, as does the absence of vaccine but nearly everyone has contracted Covid at one time or another.

The vaccine has reduced hospitalisation and is thus preferred over the alternative.

Something like that.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

[COLOR="Blue"]I used to believe in "herd immunity" but now I understand it a lot better. It's the loose term "immunity" that provides the fertile ground for dispute.

In this Covid context, either of being vaccinated or part of the community who have suffered Covid, apply. In other words you've got antibodies.

The experts can correct me as necessary, but immunity from infection does not occur. "Immunity" from hospitalisation is likely.

Vaccination of a whole population provides "herd immunity" to the extent I've stated above, as does the absence of vaccine but nearly everyone has contracted Covid at one time or another.

The vaccine has reduced hospitalisation and is thus preferred over the alternative.

Something like that.

I think you consider it as people having antibodies which reduce the chance of infection and the severity of infection.

Getting the vaccine or having had a previous infection should help stop you from getting COVID, if it doesn't then it should stop you from getting a bad case of COVID, if not then it should stop hospitalisations, if not then at least stop you going into the ICU and if it fails there then hopefully it'll stop you dying. It's a certain % decrease in the chances of all these things depending on the individual.

When this started I remember Chris Witty (or one of them) saying that you would get 'waves' of infection but each wave should be better than the last as immunity builds up, that's what we've seen.

[jonbxx]

ONS study alert - How coronavirus (COVID-19) compares with flu as a cause of death

This study goes nicely in to 'deaths with' and 'deaths due to' statistics and compares mortality due to COVID and pneumonia/flu since the start of pandemic. At some points, deaths due to COVID were up to 32x the deaths due to pneumonia/flu