Contactless cards and the future of cash

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I carry a load of cash because it's been there for the past year.

We had a family city break in Chester last October before things started locking down again. I got £100 out of an ATM in the city centre for kids' pocket money and whatever, but then almost everything we did all week was paid by card and I've barely left the house since we got back home. I still have £90 worth of pristine polymer Bank of England notes in my wallet.

My village butcher won't accept cards on orders less than £8. He's the only one.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

We had a family city break in Chester last October before things started locking down again. I got £100 out of an ATM in the city centre for kids' pocket money and whatever, but then almost everything we did all week was paid by card and I've barely left the house since we got back home. I still have £90 worth of pristine polymer Bank of England notes in my wallet.

Are ye Scottish

[Ken W]

Originally Posted by Maggy

My village butcher won't accept cards on orders less than £8. He's the only one.

Our village shop will only accept cards for greater than £5.0

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Ken W

Our village shop will only accept cards for greater than £5.0

I hope it's not the village shop I use! Last time was there, cards were no problem.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Ken W

Our village shop will only accept cards for greater than £5.0

I don't know why shops impose minimum payments for card payments. Shops pay a %, usually based on turnover, so it doesn't matter if one customer spends £100 on their card or 100 spend £1 on their cards.

In days gone by it could be argued that it takes up too much time to process piddly little bits at the till, leading to queues, but these days with contactless it's probably quicker than a cash customer as they don't need to check the note under UV light, check & give out change etc.

All minimum payments do is irritate customers, which can lead to lost sales.

Perhaps there's evidence that supports the view that imposing a minimum charge increases average customer spend??

[Ken W]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I hope it's not the village shop I use! Last time was there, cards were no problem.

Yes it is the village shop that you are thinking of, I have not been to that shop for some years and the may have changed their policy.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

I don't know why shops impose minimum payments for card payments. Shops pay a %, usually based on turnover, so it doesn't matter if one customer spends £100 on their card or 100 spend £1 on their cards.

Although that's true now, it is the case that the fees used to be per transaction, so it's possible that some retailer agreements are still based on that.

Perhaps there's evidence that supports the view that imposing a minimum charge increases average customer spend??

I always thought it was a combination of the per-transaction fee (same reason why Amex acceptance is so spotty due to their higher fees), and the floor limit for cards that trigger a 'full auth' transaction, rather than an offline one.

Now that pretty much all card machines are always connected then the full auth thing is less of a problem but again that may depend on the setup.

As a related observation, my local pharmacy is still cash only (or was when I went last year). So I generally end up using others.

[RichardCoulter]

I guess it goes both ways then, as the policy will make some spend more, but put other customers off.

[tweetiepooh]

Originally Posted by 45rpm

Perhaps you could help me (us?) understand and list even one thing that you have purchased that you would want to keep private. In other words, what is it that you buy that would embarrass you if the authorities knew?

As for controlling your spend - I am totally lost.

Sure, if you're dealing in dodgy cat-converters, I can understand your point. Otherwise, please explain. Thanks.

Once cashless it becomes possible for someone "in control" to prevent you buying or selling. They could monitor what you buy and sell, where you do it.


Again it's not the powers now that would be a concern but what a future regime could do if the tools and mechanisms are in place.

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

Once cashless it becomes possible for someone "in control" to prevent you buying or selling. They could monitor what you buy and sell, where you do it.


Again it's not the powers now that would be a concern but what a future regime could do if the tools and mechanisms are in place.

But they can do this already. It is functionally impossible for you to maintain a normal, 21st century British lifestyle while spending only cash. You have to interact with the financial system, and someone 'in control' and with malign intent could already make that very difficult for you.

Cash is in reality now only used for small purchases and there is little more an oppressive regime can do to you by interfering with that, than it could already do by interfering with the systems by which you pay for transport, housing, insurance and utilities.

[tweetiepooh]

Originally Posted by Chris

But they can do this already. It is functionally impossible for you to maintain a normal, 21st century British lifestyle while spending only cash. You have to interact with the financial system, and someone 'in control' and with malign intent could already make that very difficult for you.

Cash is in reality now only used for small purchases and there is little more an oppressive regime can do to you by interfering with that, than it could already do by interfering with the systems by which you pay for transport, housing, insurance and utilities.

True but with cash it is possible to "go underground" and use cash. You could even sell stuff to get cash to buy other stuff. Without cash that becomes a whole lot more difficult.
With cash "dishonest" traders could accept cash at a premium because they can use cash too.

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

True but with cash it is possible to "go underground" and use cash. You could even sell stuff to get cash to buy other stuff. Without cash that becomes a whole lot more difficult.
With cash "dishonest" traders could accept cash at a premium because they can use cash too.

Perhaps, but you’re now so far down the rabbit hole you’re describing a dystopian fantasy, very far removed from anywhere we could plausibly find ourselves in the foreseeable future. If you think that future is plausible enough that you need to argue for measures to help you cope with it there are other things you also ought to be doing, like digging a massive bunker under your house and filling it with long-life rations.

The reality is that when a domestic money system fails, or doesn’t enjoy the confidence of the people, the people find other tokens of exchange. Hence the widespread use of the US Dollar in 1990s Russia. I believe cartons of cigarettes were quite popular currency too.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Chris

Perhaps, but you’re now so far down the rabbit hole you’re describing a dystopian fantasy, very far removed from anywhere we could plausibly find ourselves in the foreseeable future. If you think that future is plausible enough that you need to argue for measures to help you cope with it there are other things you also ought to be doing, like digging a massive bunker under your house and filling it with long-life rations.

The reality is that when a domestic money system fails, or doesn’t enjoy the confidence of the people, the people find other tokens of exchange. Hence the widespread use of the US Dollar in 1990s Russia. I believe cartons of cigarettes were quite popular currency too.

Yes, if/when cash is made obsolete, i'm sure that something else will be used as currency, particularly by the criminal underworld.

It's already happened with online currency by the use of cryptocurrency.

Cryptocurrency is a way of doing it, but let’s not forget that gold and other precious commodities are also a universally accepted store of value. There will never be a shortage of ways to pay for something that a government can’t track - none of which need seriously concern us here. The barrier to our financial system isn’t caused by our government, nor is it ever likely to be. It is the increasing use of technology and remote customer service that makes it harder for those who have difficulty engaging with such things, for whatever reason. Cash in some form is therefore unlikely to disappear any time soon.