Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Good Post

Thanks for your kind words, Sirius.

Originally Posted by the_baby_jebus

I wouldn't use BT as your ISP though.. they're up to their necks in this scam as well...

Wouldn't even think about it, mate.
That's why I wrote: "I'll be ... getting a BT phone line installed to enable ADSL2+"

Luckily for me, I have a choice of ADSL2+ providers (at ~7Mbps according to SamKnows Mapping) amongst Be Unlimited, O2, UK Online and Sky Max.

[Kellargh]

If BT make this a non-optional service, is there any way I can get out of a contract with them?

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by Kellargh

If BT make this a non-optional service, is there any way I can get out of a contract with them?

I suspect your query would be better answered in the BT Community Forums than here. But we'll be rooting for you!


(More relevantly as you're 'inside the machine', how can we lobby the plonkers upstairs to make sure they realise how pis^u^u^u disappointed we are with their handling of the Phorm/WebWise issue?)

[OF1975]

A new short piece from the register regarding AVG, Trend Micro, Webroots classification of phorm etc:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...lassification/

[none]

Originally Posted by Kellargh

If BT make this a non-optional service, is there any way I can get out of a contract with them?

When it goes live there will have to be a significant change to BT's T&C's. Once this occurs it will provide a means of severing your contract without penalty.

[hOrZa]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Does this mean that when I roam onto the Orange UK network when I visit the UK I need to opt in or out? How does that work.

You can only get onto OrangeWorld with a Orange SIM

hth

[piggy]

Originally Posted by hOrZa

You can only get onto OrangeWorld with a Orange SIM

hth

utter rubbish!! if you land in the uk with a foriegn sim you get texts asking you to use there service you do not need a orange sim to use orangeworld

[hOrZa]

Other UK sims don't work on orangeworld, certain services from abroad may have arranged roaming rights but not all

[chris9991]

I found this article quite informative http://www.economist.com/printeditio...ry_id=10789393

Though the article talks about what is happening in the USA it does suggest that similar thing will be used in Europe. The way I see it, the only reason someone like Virgin Media have been talking to Phorm is due the requirement to tap all web use. With the deal the ISP doesn't have to pay to host the equipment and yet will be able comply with the law and monitor all use. Revenue raised from the advertising would be a 'bonus'

It would also seem to imply that ALL ISPs would be required to have monitors so regardless of where people defect to, they are likely to be monitored.

One thought springs to mind however. The article refers to Skype and how packets are encrypted. Would it be practical to use Skype as pseudo dial up, rather than send voice over it data. I don't know what performance would be like, but just a thought

[Anonymouse]

Originally Posted by chris9991

Though the article talks about what is happening in the USA it does suggest that similar thing will be used in Europe. The way I see it, the only reason someone like Virgin Media have been talking to Phorm is due the requirement to tap all web use. With the deal the ISP doesn't have to pay to host the equipment and yet will be able comply with the law and monitor all use.

No. Unless the EU and our government completely lose what little sense they have, the only ways in which this could be legal are a) after the granting of a warrant/court order (which is allowed for in the DPA, but even then there must be just cause, i.e. reason to suspect you are or may be committing criminal acts - not merely because some gort wants to deluge you with targeted ads!), or b) if the current laws are changed. My scepticism re this government and the EU notwithstanding, I really can't see that happening. Certainly in this country some serious questions would be asked in the House, which I imagine the PM is woefully ill-equipped to answer. In fact, any such change would have to conform to EU legislation as well.

Besides, Virgin won't be paying to host the equipment - Phorm will be paying them to do it, that's the whole point. Except for the (hopefully large) number of broadband subscribers they're going to lose, Virgin's costs will be minimal - unless one or more subscribers sue them as a result of data security leaks and subsequent financial or other damage to them.

Originally Posted by chris9991

It would also seem to imply that ALL ISPs would be required to have monitors so regardless of where people defect to, they are likely to be monitored.

How do you mean, "required"? In order to make this work at all, that might be true - but in the legal framework of RIPA, the DPA and several other pieces of legislation, the ISPs can only be 'required' to perform such monitoring if ordered to do so by the Police or HMG. If you reread Rob's form letter (and hey, Rob: have you had any reply yet?), one key point which I don't think has been mentioned for a while is that before all this started, Virgin's T & Cs stated that they would not perform any such monitoring...and that particular clause has disappeared. If this is legal as Phorm allege, one has to wonder why Virgin felt they had to make such a change.

Originally Posted by chris9991

One thought springs to mind however. The article refers to Skype and how packets are encrypted. Would it be practical to use Skype as pseudo dial up, rather than send voice over it data. I don't know what performance would be like, but just a thought

I'm not techie enough to say yea or nay to that, but I suspect it either wouldn't be practical or it simply wouldn't work. Besides, why the hell should we be expected to encrypt all our traffic if all we're doing is looking something up on Wikipedia or just idly browsing Amazon? Let's get something straight: it is none of Virgin's business, nor that of Phorm, nor, in fact, of ANYONE ON THIS FREAKIN' PLANET, what websites I browse or who I email or what I buy online!

[Traduk]

That article is not worth the time and trouble of reading.

The UK telephone network changed to a packet switching digital network around a decade ago. The article is comparing the non existent long since redundant analogue network with packet switching internet networks which are highly comparable with modern telephony methods.

There are legal requirements to intercept telephony communications and IMO the exact same requirements should apply to internet packets whatever the use.

[thebarron]

Hi, I've been following the debate with interest on here and other forums and thought I would give my two penniesworth.

I (part time) develop bespoke Web applications and test these on several flavours of browsers IE, Opera, Firefox - and I certainly would want to opt-out. So then with the currently proposed opt-out approach I would have to opt-out in all browsers on all machines, sounds like fun.

Also I do not see it being a big problem as a developer, to put a bit of script on a website that was using this 'Spyware' to marry up the 'Random (ish) number of the Phorm cookie and the IP address and header info of the browser requesting the page. So unless they have come up with a new way of communication over the Internet it does not seem too anonymous to me.

Default opt out which bypasses the Phorm system is the only civilised thing for any ISP to do. I just hope they do that.

Life is too short and there are far more interesting things to be doing. Fighting corperate EGO's and greed is not one of them.

[dav]

This thread has just been shown on the BBC's "Click!"
TradUK is famous lol.

Anyway keep up the good work everyone. No Surrender!

[TehTech]

Originally Posted by dav

This thread has just been shown on the BBC's "Click!"
TradUK is famous lol.

Anyway keep up the good work everyone. No Surrender!

This is indeed good news for the customers of BT & VM!

Will there be a repeat of it or a webshow of it anytime in the future as I would be really interested to watch / listen to it!

This is what we need, more publicity on what is going on / intended to go on if PHORM get their way, and must be stopped dead!

More people have to know & protest at this or we will wont win the war against PHORM!

[Griffin]

With any luck Phorm's ip addresses & all there severs will be added to the blocklists in peerguardian & protowall, then if everyone uses these ip blockers it will surely render Phorm's system entirely useless