Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] - Page 80

**Mick** · 13-03-2008, 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNorm

By not doing so, isn't the implication the data aren't private? I agree, eavesdropping is impolite - but is it illegal?

I wouldn't be suprised if it was in some countries, as it is illegal to worry a Squirrel in some parts of the world but in both cases, irrelevant to the issue about internet data being tracked and so relevant ads can be served from this data.

SMHarman · 13-03-2008, 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by OF1975

PhormUKPRteam

I am sure I have read somewhere that contrary to what you have said, Phorm WILL store data for up to 14 days for research and monitoring purposes. Despite trying unfortunately I can no longer find that information. Just to clarify matters can you give a cast-iron guarantee that NONE of our data pertaining to our surfing habits will be stored?

EY Report Page 2 Point II
Phorm has established industry-leading standards regarding storage, retention and deletion of data.
Blah Blah however,

This specific data cannot be accessed by our ISP partners.
Even this non-personally -identifiable information is automatically purged from the production system immediately (research and debug logs may be kept on a separate system for a maximum of 14 days).
Once the system purges this data, it is not possible for us to release it, either accidentally or deliverately.

Blah, Blah
Sincerely

Kent Ertugrul
CEO
Phorm, Inc.

Barkotron · 13-03-2008, 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNorm

Exactly my point. If you considered your data to be sensitive, you would use https (or another form of encryption). By not doing so, isn't the implication the data aren't private? I agree, eavesdropping is impolite - but is it illegal?

Yes. The Home Office advice mentioned a few pages back in the thread makes it very clear that intercepting these communications is illegal under the RIPA without explicit consent, unless the interception is essential to provide the contracted service. Having targeted adverts or some pathetic "anti-phishing" fig leaf is in no way essential to the service any of us pay our money for, which is for the ISP to transfer our communications to the recipient and theirs to us. Reading any more of the communication than is necessary to get it there is illegal, unless they have the explicit consent of BOTH parties, i.e. you _and_ the website.

The Home Office advice suggests that the website is giving implied consent to the interception simply by being a publicly-available website, but I can't see that standing up to a decent lawyer if they're profiling e.g. password-protected, but not https websites, which are reasonably common.

They also say that the users' consent can be contained within the Ts & Cs, but this would require us to give that consent as the interception would involve a massive change to the Ts & Cs given the privacy statements some people listed earlier.

You appear to be suggesting that if the Post Office were to open our letters, read them and sell the contents to a commercial mailing company, then that would be okay because we didn't bother to encrypt what we were writing about with a replica Enigma machine, or that it would be okay for BT to listen in to what we were saying on the phone because we hadn't made it private by using some kind of voice scrambling technology. Just because the message is plaintext doesn't mean we don't have the right to expect it to remain private from those we have contracted to get it from us to the recipient.

shawty · 13-03-2008, 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by piggy

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06...edophile_ring/

i think this gang was tracked

It does not state how they caught the original person and they caught the rest by posing as the original person and not by their browsing habbits.

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

Morden · 13-03-2008, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawty

Paedophiles get caught by either taking their PC in for repair or buying Child Porn. I dont think they get caught by their browsing habbits.

They can also scan the pc for images even if the disk has been wiped, there are some clever recovery tools out there for professional users. Limited userbase, but almost custom made to allow data to be recovered, even from broken drives.

But if the police have a suspicion they can request the logs from the ISP and even take away a server should they wish. I have personally seen a server go walkies with the police with the correct warrant. Not for a paed case though.

shawty · 13-03-2008, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morden

They can also scan the pc for images even if the disk has been wiped, there are some clever recovery tools out there for professional users. Limited userbase, but almost custom made to allow data to be recovered, even from broken drives.

But if the police have a suspicion they can request the logs from the ISP and even take away a server should they wish. I have personally seen a server go walkies with the police with the correct warrant. Not for a paed case though.

I understand that but the point was that Ive never seen or heard a case of a paedophile been caught due to their browsing habbits (going and searching for the actual porn), its always something else thats got them caught, like taking a PC in for repair or trying to meet up with underage people.

ceedee · 13-03-2008, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNorm

I've seen couples in airports saying to each other "now where do we get a taxi" only to have some guy come up to them, presumably an unlicensed cab driver.

And it's rude, intrusive and (all too frequently) dangerous for the passengers!

When did Phorm (or VM, for that matter) obtain a license (my consent) to flog my data?

the_baby_jebus · 13-03-2008, 20:16

just done a quick check on www.webwise.net, a.webwise.net and www.oix.com

admittedly these aren't confirmed as the domains that the opt-in/out cookie will be tied to, but bear with me

these 2 domains are not in BT's or VM's net block (it's fasthosts if you care)...

which means that if you visit any site (the guardian for instance) that is in oix, then the cookie will be read from somewhere outside BT or VM.. which is in direct contradiction to what we've been spun.. i.e. no data will go outside the ISP..

the cookie can be read by one of these sites then who knows.. your unique oix id and browsing habits, can now be strung together with your ip address and anything else your browser wants to give up..

edit : sorry for mentioning BT but i don't think this is a purely cable problem

shawty · 13-03-2008, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceedee

And it's rude, intrusive and (all too frequently) dangerous for the passengers!

When did Phorm (or VM, for that matter) obtain a license (my consent) to flog my data?

What data? Going by what VM and Phorm say, no data bearing anything that goes back to you is used. Any other data is surely owned by the website you are visiting.

TheNorm · 13-03-2008, 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkotron

... You appear to be suggesting that if the Post Office were to open our letters, ....

Postcards, not letters; see posts 1122, 1128 & 1129

the_baby_jebus · 13-03-2008, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawty

What data? Going by what VM and Phorm say, no data bearing anything that goes back to you is used. Any other data is surely owned by the website you are visiting.

to be honest they've said so many contradictory things i wouldn't believe them if they said 1+1=2

and i don't think this is about selling YOUR data.. it's about ISPs jumping into bed with a know spyware pusher and expecting us to bend over and take it.. we're already the most spied upon people in the world in this country if you're happy with that then fine.. but most people don't seem to be

fatbloke · 13-03-2008, 20:41

I emailed Virgin to opt out of this phorm deal,the very nice guy I spoke too said he would get back to me which he did...he didn't seem to know much about the deal but did say that Virgin are testing the water to see how it would go down with it's customers.
He also offered me the name and phone number so I could speak to someone from Phorm which I declined and pointed out to him that my Isp is Virgin and they alone are responsible for this deal, If I was targetted in any way with ads I would leave Virgin.
So if you haven't complained to Virgin yet do so and also get anyone else you know on Virgin cable to complain as well.

Morden · 13-03-2008, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawty

I understand that but the point was that Ive never seen or heard a case of a paedophile been caught due to their browsing habbits (going and searching for the actual porn), its always something else thats got them caught, like taking a PC in for repair or trying to meet up with underage people.

Or using chat rooms for which server logs are kept of.

And the last lot of arrests were done via a chat room sting.

No one is anonymous on the web they only think they are. There are footprints everywhere which can be tracked. Yes some are arrested by the way that you say and others are arested by other methods.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3789279.stm

shawty · 13-03-2008, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morden

Or using chat rooms for which server logs are kept of.

And the last lot of arrests were done via a chat room sting.

No one is anonymous on the web they only think they are. There are footprints everywhere which can be tracked. Yes some are arrested by the way that you say and others are arested by other methods.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3789279.stm

Thats still not what Im talking about. Im talking about actual looking at 'free' child porn images. I have not heard of any case were a paedophile was caught due to him searching maybe 'child porn' into google and finding images of child porn (you get my drift) and then that person going on to find more.

The only arrests Ive heard off are like you say, where a person goes looking for it and talking about it in chatrooms were it can easily be reported, trying to meet up with underage people, buying it via credit card or taking their PC in for repair.

I maybe wrong, but Ive not heard of such a case.

ceedee · 13-03-2008, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawty

What data?

My browsing data: what I'm looking at, where I'm looking at it, the time of day -- that's just for now.

Quote:

Going by what VM and Phorm say, no data bearing anything that goes back to you is used. Any other data is surely owned by the website you are visiting.

And going by the patent (have a look at [0042]?), they can mine lots more.
Why should I believe either of them when they say they won't use anything identifiable?
VM have lost my trust and Phorm never had it.

Are you sure this won't be the 'thin end of the wedge' of ISPs capturing and profiting from our internet use?