Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[popper]

hmmm,"Phorm would have done much better to wait until the service was fully baked" as in fully kitted out and gone operational, dont think so somehow.
http://blogs.msdn.com/adplate/archiv...-function.aspx
"
Phorm over function

Published 12 March 08 08:05 PM | ianth
"There's been plenty of buzz (more of the angry hornet variety rather than the just-inhaled-a-lungful-of-dope variety) about Phorm of late, precipitated by a press release that the company put out on Feb 14 in the UK..."

"Critics of the system (led by noted UK cage-rattler, The Register) claim that the technology is little more than spyware by another name.
...."

[Morden]

I'm not advocating Phorm as I disagree with it, its just stupid comments like virgin can see what I do.

They dont need phorm to do this and even telewest had the ability to this, infact doesnt matter who you use as an isp, if they so choose to investigate they can get your broswing habits, its how peeds are caught bang to rights.

Yes you haven't signed up to phorm and virgin should make it opt in not opt out. Or better still forget about the whole thing as a PR disater waiting to happen the day it goes live.

Is the revenue from Phorm worth the lost revenue in bad PR. I bet someone in Virgin is busy with an abacus at this very moment

[TehTech]

1 question I would like a definate answer to:
Would they be implementing this rubbish on the business broadband package or just the residential broadband?

[Florence]

Originally Posted by TehTech

1 question I would like a definate answer to:
Would they be implementing this rubbish on the business broadband package or just the residential broadband?

Last yhear a business on Bt was caught up in an earlier version of this that BT trialed without letting ppl know, it has been mentioned in the thread pages back. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...a_summer_2007/

Countdown to BT line starts

[jonifen]

Even if we chose to opt out... how can we know for sure that our information isn't being sent anyway? We will only ever know what VM tell us...

[shawty]

Originally Posted by Morden

I'm not advocating Phorm as I disagree with it, its just stupid comments like virgin can see what I do.

They dont need phorm to do this and even telewest had the ability to this, infact doesnt matter who you use as an isp, if they so choose to investigate they can get your broswing habits, its how peeds are caught bang to rights.

Yes you haven't signed up to phorm and virgin should make it opt in not opt out. Or better still forget about the whole thing as a PR disater waiting to happen the day it goes live.

Is the revenue from Phorm worth the lost revenue in bad PR. I bet someone in Virgin is busy with an abacus at this very moment

Paedophiles get caught by either taking their PC in for repair or buying Child Porn. I dont think they get caught by their browsing habbits.

[piggy]

[QUOTE=shawty;34505919]Paedophiles get caught by either taking their PC in for repair or buying Child Porn. I dont think they get caught by their browsing habbits.[/QUOTE

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06...edophile_ring/

i think this gang was tracked

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by Morden

I'm not advocating Phorm as I disagree with it, its just stupid comments like virgin can see what I do.

They dont need phorm to do this and even telewest had the ability to this, infact doesnt matter who you use as an isp, if they so choose to investigate they can get your broswing habits, its how peeds are caught bang to rights.

Yes you haven't signed up to phorm and virgin should make it opt in not opt out. Or better still forget about the whole thing as a PR disater waiting to happen the day it goes live.

Is the revenue from Phorm worth the lost revenue in bad PR. I bet someone in Virgin is busy with an abacus at this very moment

Sorry Morden, I think I might have misunderstood your original post
I'm sure someone at Virgin is running the numbers as we type, but I'm not at all confident they'll come up with the right answer!

[Stuart]

[QUOTE=piggy;34505963]

Originally Posted by shawty

Paedophiles get caught by either taking their PC in for repair or buying Child Porn. I dont think they get caught by their browsing habbits.[/QUOTE

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06...edophile_ring/

i think this gang was tracked

The difference being that the Police need little things like warrants to track people. Phorm do not have a warrant. It's not clear whether they even have the legal right.

Also, they are not tracking just a small group of people who they are reasonably suspicious have done wrong. They are tracking millions of people. the bulk of whom are innocent.

[PhormUKPRteam]

Hi all
PhormUKPRteam here again - further to recent speculation on the coverage of Phorm patents: a patent is not a blueprint. The Phorm Webwise system has been designed from the ground with privacy at its heart. Patents are designed to help inventors protect their ideas. They do this by describing every different approach that could be taken so as to give the inventor the broadest definition of the idea and improve the chances of preventing anyone else from copying it. The systems we roll out will have much more focussed functionality than that described in the patents. And it will preserve the highest standards of online privacy

[dav]

PhormPR bod:

You're really swimming against the tide with this.
Most people are concerned by the patent contents as it highlights what is possible under the system that is being implanted into ISP networks. Once the foot is through the door, there's no accountability as to how it will be changed in the future. A change to T&C's here, an upgrade there, and before you know it we may as well all parade around naked with our personal details tattoo'd on our chests.

"Assurances" mean very little where this subject is concerned.

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by PhormUKPRteam

Hi all
PhormUKPRteam here again - further to recent speculation on the coverage of Phorm patents: a patent is not a blueprint. The Phorm Webwise system has been designed from the ground with privacy at its heart. Patents are designed to help inventors protect their ideas. They do this by describing every different approach that could be taken so as to give the inventor the broadest definition of the idea and improve the chances of preventing anyone else from copying it. The systems we roll out will have much more focussed functionality than that described in the patents. And it will preserve the highest standards of online privacy

The purpose of a patent is to reserve the right to do a certain thing in a certain way, and to prevent others from doing the same, so whether you like to admit it or not, in filing this patent you are reserving the right to potentially collect data on us in the future through wider means that you have so far announced (e.g. monitoring of data on ports other than port 80), and to diversify the ways in which you currently plan to target advertisements at us (e.g. interstitial pages - aka- inserting extra full page advertisments between the pages that we have actually requested through our ISP). Even if this is not your intention right now, things change, so you'll forgive us for not believing everything you tell us, since we've been given no choice about the installation of your hardware in our ISP so far. I'm sure you understand that the best hope for those of us who are fundamentally opposed to your plans is to prevent this system ever getting off the ground. Once it's running, it'll be much harder for us to get it shut down, and it'll be much easier for you to implement incremental changes to the software that will further erode our privacy.

[PhormUKPRteam]

Originally Posted by dav

PhormPR bod:

You're really swimming against the tide with this.
Most people are concerned by the patent contents as it highlights what is possible under the system that is being implanted into ISP networks. Once the foot is through the door, there's no accountability as to how it will be changed in the future. A change to T&C's here, an upgrade there, and before you know it we may as well all parade around naked with our personal details tattoo'd on our chests.

"Assurances" mean very little where this subject is concerned.

Hi Dav / Lucevans

We agree - users have a hard time trusting organisations with personal data. But there is zero chance that we could use or release a user's personal data, because we store zero personal data. While there is some skepticism on the forums, that's mainly because people are still in the mind-set that you can only target ads with personal data just as everyday ad cookies do. We've broken the link between targeting and personal information so we're quite pleased to see people debating online privacy. In addition, as previously stated there is the E&Y oversight and that of the ISPs themselves - accountability and transparency are critical to Webwise and how it works.

[dav]

Originally Posted by PhormUKPRteam

Hi Dav / Lucevans

We agree - users have a hard time trusting organisations with personal data. But there is zero chance that we could use or release a user's personal data, because we store zero personal data. While there is some skepticism on the forums, that's mainly because people are still in the mind-set that you can only target ads with personal data just as everyday ad cookies do. We've broken the link between targeting and personal information so we're quite pleased to see people debating online privacy. In addition, as previously stated there is the E&Y oversight and that of the ISPs themselves - accountability and transparency are critical to Webwise and how it works.

Thanks for the reply, but you really do have the wrong end of the stick.

I, for one, think I understand the system quite well. It may come as a shock, but I have nothing against Webwise as a system for people who want to use it via an explicit opt-in which routes their traffic through the webwise system, leaving all other traffic untouched in any way. It is their browsing data that only they can choose to send to you.

The issue here is that Webwise can have access to all personal data (IP addresses, names, postal details etc), before it even reaches the extraction part and "anonymiser". THAT is what I have a huge, angry reaction to.

This is clearly stated in the patent and I firmly believe that the human condition means that if something can be done, it will be done, irrespective of whether it should or shouldn't be done. The Manhattan Project started after a bunch of nuclear physicists postulated that it would be possible to start a nuclear fission reaction and get huge returns in the form of released energy. They were elated when their tests proved successful. The inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, less so. The point is, once the genie is out of the bottle...

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by PhormUKPRteam

Hi Dav / Lucevans

We agree - users have a hard time trusting organisations with personal data. But there is zero chance that we could use or release a user's personal data, because we store zero personal data. While there is some skepticism on the forums, that's mainly because people are still in the mind-set that you can only target ads with personal data just as everyday ad cookies do. We've broken the link between targeting and personal information so we're quite pleased to see people debating online privacy. In addition, as previously stated there is the E&Y oversight and that of the ISPs themselves - accountability and transparency are critical to Webwise and how it works.

You may not store directly linked information, but your systems do process a lot of personal data and it's entirely possible that the system will be (as happened at AOL) hacked, and that link will be made, and the data exploited by scammers. The systems placed in each ISPs network would become a target for hackers.

As for the "benefits" to the consumer. I do not consider advertising (whether targetted or not) to be a benefit. I personally have no problem with advertising (I moderate this site, which is funded by ads, so for me to have a problem with advertising would be hypocritical) but, I can honestly say that I ignore web based adverts, so targetted ads would provide no benefit.

Also, I personally would not benefit from the webwise protection. I am perfectly capable of protecting myself from scams (on and off line), and find the combination of my own intelligence, the anti spyware/virus software on my PC and my browser's own anti phising systems to be more than adequate. I've been browsing since 1994, and do you know how many times I have been caught out? Twice.

The main problem I have with the system is simple. So far three ISPs have been announced as having signed up. Not one of them (AFAIK) has actually asked their users if they want this system. I realise that CPW have said they'll look at ways of routing the data around Phorm's systems if customers opt out, and Virgin appear to be considering their position, but, they've only done this in response to the fuss caused by forums (such as this one) and the media.

Even where they have talked about the system, they've played up the percieved benefits of the webwise system without actually mentioning that the system watches what people are looking at.

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

Originally Posted by dav

The issue here is that Webwise can have access to all personal data (IP addresses, names, postal details etc), before it even reaches the extraction part and "anonymiser". THAT is what I have a huge, angry reaction to.

Reading through the patent, it would seem that the system has access to a lot more personal data than it needs to target ads.