Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[popper]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7291637.stm
"Open Rights Group questions Phorm

The Open Rights Group has published its concerns


Campaign body the Open Rights Group (ORG) has called for further detail on the workings of ad system Phorm

"


regarding the RIPA, you would think someone in the Home Office if asked, when all this began back in january, would come to the conclusion that Targeted online advertising services should be provided with the explicit consent of ISPs' users.

OC with the Consent of the ISPs' user and web page host would make that interception clearly lawful,perhaps.

it might also be argued that consent of a web page host is satisfied in such a case because the host or publisher who makes a web page available for download from a server impliedly consents to those pages being downloaded.

however, keep in mind that 'explicit consent' ,and this is Key, IF they dont get this 'explicit consent' and the web page host were make the time to put a disclaimer on their pages forbiding interception by any such profiling elecronic device then interception is clearly unlawful.

something to consider anyway.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by dav

I've just thought of a massive flaw in Webwise that will render a lot of its targeted ads largely irrelevent to me. (Apologies if this has already been dicussed, but this particular penny has just dropped)

Assume that I fully embrace the concept and happily start using it, letting the system profile and pigeon-hole me to its hearts content.
Periodically, I will have a burst of activity on a particular subject, for example, I'm looking for a new car. I then start getting ads for cars etc. Great, I guess it's helping.

They store your unique identifying random number, the category (cars) and a timestamp. So over time that timestamp will decay the value of that information and replace it with you interest in consumer electronics. Though I suppose the smart data miners could start targeting car insurance ads 11 months or so after you started being flagged for cars, or extended warranties 3 years after you bought if you were searching for new cars.

[popper]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/12/mobile_phom/
"
Qualcomm buys into Phorm-alike firm

Data gathering on the hoof

By Bill Ray → More by this author
Published Wednesday 12th March 2008 13:14 GMT

The ad-fatigued may groan at the news that Qualcomm has splashed out $32m on data-gathering outfit Xiam. The Irish company specialises in analysing the habits of mobile phone users in order to target advertising at them, and has customers including Orange UK.

Targeted advertising is all the rage these days, but the ways in which the necessary data is gathered is still the subject of hot debate. Xiam makes great play of its ability to profile users just by watching what they do without requiring configuration, and Orange UK apparently "supplies Xiam with data including billing information, mobile browsing logs and purchase history".

Orange assured us that the "browsing logs" only refers to on-portal usage (within Orange World), and "billing information" relates to purchases made from the operator. However, ...."

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by popper

The ad-fatigued may groan at the news that Qualcomm has splashed out $32m on data-gathering outfit Xiam. The Irish company specialises in analysing the habits of mobile phone users in order to target advertising at them, and has customers including Orange UK.

Does this mean that when I roam onto the Orange UK network when I visit the UK I need to opt in or out? How does that work.

[isf]

Originally Posted by popper

regarding the RIPA, you would think someone in the Home Office if asked, when all this began back in january, would come to the conclusion that Targeted online advertising services should be provided with the explicit consent of ISPs' users.

OC with the Consent of the ISPs' user and web page host would make that interception clearly lawful,perhaps.

it might also be argued that consent of a web page host is satisfied in such a case because the host or publisher who makes a web page available for download from a server impliedly consents to those pages being downloaded.

however, keep in mind that 'explicit consent' ,and this is Key, IF they dont get this 'explicit consent' and the web page host were make the time to put a disclaimer on their pages forbiding interception by any such profiling elecronic device then interception is clearly unlawful.

something to consider anyway.

Home office guidance that overlooks the specifics of how Phorm works (TT/CPW get it 100%).

[dav]

SMHarman:

OK.

However, the way I, and I suspect many people, browse is quite quickly over a large range of topics. The ease of availability of information from different categories makes it inevitable that you're going to switch between them in pretty short order. I'd bet Kent's stock options that it could not keep up with me and deliver 'relevant' ads. I can imagine it being able to identify long term interests, but how long to I have to be searching for something frilly for the mrs before it starts serving up ads that will help me? By that time, I suspect the deal would be done and dusted without me ever clicking on a Phorm served ad.

[popper]

you found it then

yeah, but this is a direct answer to the interception question and the RIPA law,regarding 'Targeted online advertising services' its clear without explicit consent of both partys, its not lawful in the eyes of the home office , and i would assume the courts too.

OC we already know this to be the case, but its nice to see it confirmed by the Home Office (even if it was on the QT).

if you are a web page host, web based messageboard etc, and interested in this interception matter, its probably werth putting that interception exclusion somewere on your pages just to be safe.

after all its not much text, and it gives you some/much more legal clout .

[isf]

Originally Posted by popper

you found it then

I did don't ever recall seeing it linked here.

As you say; any kind of authenticated session is assumed private and yet Phorms profiler software still gets the page. I don't think the Home Office realized back in January that the cookie based opt-out means communications are still intercepted. The way I see it, Phorm must be set up like TT/CPW are planning.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by popper

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/12/mobile_phom/
"
Qualcomm buys into Phorm-alike firm

Data gathering on the hoof

By Bill Ray → More by this author
Published Wednesday 12th March 2008 13:14 GMT

The ad-fatigued may groan at the news that Qualcomm has splashed out $32m on data-gathering outfit Xiam. The Irish company specialises in analysing the habits of mobile phone users in order to target advertising at them, and has customers including Orange UK.

Targeted advertising is all the rage these days, but the ways in which the necessary data is gathered is still the subject of hot debate. Xiam makes great play of its ability to profile users just by watching what they do without requiring configuration, and Orange UK apparently "supplies Xiam with data including billing information, mobile browsing logs and purchase history".

Orange assured us that the "browsing logs" only refers to on-portal usage (within Orange World), and "billing information" relates to purchases made from the operator. However, ...."

Whats next targeted TV ads via VM cable.

How far will this all go. If they are now looking into mobile.

[popper]

yep, of course, didnt you know?, they need to pay Neils next bonus as he missed out this time around...

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by mertle

Whats next targeted TV ads via VM cable.

How far will this all go. If they are now looking into mobile.

Cable TV ads are targetted. The audience per channel is far smaller and more demographically defined so the advertising is more targeted. Do you see many feminine hygene advertisments on "Dave", compared to "Living"

[TheNorm]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

... To compare this to the postal system, this would be the same as the postman picking up your mail from your house (as he does in the US), instead of delivering it based on the address (headers) on the front, opening it and reading the contents and making a note that No. 27 has sent off a request for a brochure to a luxury car company (which could not be worked out from the PO Box address on the outside of the letter). Passing that information on so you also get information back from many other car companies. There are laws about opening mail and people get sent to jail for it.....

Nice analogy, but wouldn't it be more accurate if you replaced "letter" with "postcard"? And it wouldn't be the postman having a look, but the sorting office. I'm not sure that any laws would then be broken.

There's money in everything. Money is the beast!

[popper]

Nice analogy, but wouldn't it be more accurate if you replaced "letter" with "postcard"? And it wouldn't be the postman having a look, but the sorting office. I'm not sure that any laws would then be broken.

you might think so yes, but if its true what pete says on
http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...e-phorm-storm/
then perhaps not.

"Pete Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Its important to note its not just your web surfing that’s vulnerable to Phorming.

Microsoft Office products, when they request content from the web, do so using the same ‘user agent’ identifier as Internet Explorer.

In non technical terms, this means Phorm can’t differentiate between web requests from Microsoft Office, Open Office, and Internet Explorer.

Consequently, if you open an email in Outlook with embedded images for example, or a Word office document with web content in, the requests that your office software sends to the web will be indistinguishable from Internet Explorer.

Assuming Internet Explorer is on Phorm’s white list, Phorm could know which email newsletters you receive, when/if/how often you read them. It could know which Word documents from which companies you had opened and read.

See;
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...iewforum.php?6
for details.
Phorm must be stopped. Opt in isn’t even tolerable any more.
Otherwise, the only way to opt out comprehensively is to opt out of your ISP. :o(
Pete.
"

[bigbadcol]

Hiya everybody

I posted this over at El Reg this morning, and if you missed it, thought you may like to have a read.

Thanks Col

Story of the Emperor's New Adverts

With apologies to Hans Christian Andersen

Once there lived an Advertiser who was so fond of spywear and rout kits that he spent developing them in the hope of making even more money. He did not care about security, he did not care about the people; he only liked to make money. He had an excuse and justification for the people’s fears, every hour of the day he would pronounce trust me, I am not a bad man. My past products were not spywear, and lo the BBC trusted him, and he was happy.

In the great where he traded there was always something going on; every day many strangers came there. One day two impostors arrived once went by the name Ernst & Young and the other was 20/80. They wrote reports and said “yes we trust you, you are not a seller of bad things. We absolve you, and all you do is good. The people will be happy and protected from all that is bad. They said that they knew how to manufacture a report that was so trustworthy only a fool would not believe it. And so they did, they wrote a report wit such texture that we words were spun so greatly that the government believed it. the companies believed it , and the broadcasters believed it . It was written with the most beautiful words imaginable. Not only were the words and syntax written in a most uncommonly beautiful way, but the whole report was of the quality that no advert peddler could ever imagine. The report was so fantastic that all of the bad things went away as it possessed this wonderful property called spin that had never been seen in this way before. The spin was so good that they said it will be invisible to anyone who was not fit for his office, or who was unpardonably stupid.

'Those must indeed be splendid adverts,' thought the Advertiser. 'If I had them on my web servers I could find out which men in land would help me with the spin and I could distinguish the wise from the stupid! Yes, this report must be written for me at once.' And he gave both the impostors much money, so that they might begin their work.

They placed two computers, and began to do as if they were working, but they had not the least thing on the computers, no research no law, nothing. They also demanded the finest truth and wisest words, which they put in their report, and worked at the blank computer till late into the night.

'I should like very much to know how far they have got on with the report,' thought the Advertiser. But he remembered when he thought about it that whoever was stupid or not fit for his office would not be able to the truth. Now he certainly believed that he had nothing to fear for himself, but he wanted first to send somebody else in order to see how he stood with regard to the law. Everybody in the whole town knew what a wonderful power the truth had, and they were all curious to see how bad or how stupid their neighbour was.

'I will send my old and honoured minister to the writers,' thought the Emperor. 'He can judge best what the truth is like, for he has intellect, and no one understands his office better than he.'

'Is it not a beautiful report?' asked the two impostors, and they pointed to and described the splendid truth which was not there.

'Stupid I am not!' thought the man, 'so it must be my good office for which I am not fitted. It is strange, certainly, but no one must be allowed to notice it.' And so he praised the truth which he did not see, and expressed to them his delight at the beautiful truth and wisest words with such splendid texture. 'Yes, it is quite beautiful,' he said to the advertiser.

Everybody in computer land was talking of the magnificent report, this great system, which would save them all from untargeted advertisements, all hail to the great Advertiser they sang, all hail to Phorm went up the cry from the great leader of the internet, all hail to Phorm sang BT, Virgin alike, while . Car Phone Warehouse pondered and though yet still they sang all hail to Phorm.

Now the Advertiser wanted to read it himself so he brought together a great crowd of select followers, amongst whom were both the worthy buisness who had already been there before, he went to the cunning impostors, who were now spinning and name calling with all their might, but without a shred of truth.

'Is it not splendid!' said both the old statesmen who had already been there. 'See, your adverts so targeted so fine. See the protection form the evil Phishers!' And then they pointed to the report, for they believed that the others could see the the truth just as they could see it as well.

'What!' thought the Advertiser 'I can see trouble and law, I can see RIPA and DPA! This is indeed horrible! Am I stupid? Am I not fit to be the Great advertiser? That was the most dreadful thing that could happen to me. Oh, it is very beautiful,' he said. 'It has my gracious approval.' And then he nodded pleasantly, and examined the report and believed all of the spin and guff and nodded with a happy smile.

His gathered his investors around him and they looked and looked, and read and read, and saw no more than the others; but they said like the Advertiser, 'Oh! it is beautiful!' so wonderful what can go wrong, and they invested millions. And they advised him to show the world his wonderful new adverts.

In the morning he called the PR he called the media, he called the stock market. Come Look at the great advert system I have invented, come look at the report that sings its praises, come look at me, I am not a Spywear peddler or rout kit seller, I am the Great saviour of the world, I will Protect you all from untargeted adverts .

'Spun words are so wonderful that one would imagine that not one word was the truth.
'Yes,' said all the leaders and the BBC we believe everything you tell us. , but they could see truth , for there was no truth there.

And they called a press conference so the Great Advertiser could tell the world of his new plan and the reports came, and the TV people came, and the interviewers came. And he told the world, and it was reported. The stock price went up, and money was made and the great Advertiser was happy, the inverters were happy and So the Advertiser went along in procession of media and web chats across the Internet and media he went, and to all the people on every computer, and interview he said , 'How matchless are the Advertisers great adverts! and as they listened and read they all great that the Great advertiser was truly wonderful.

No one wished it to be noticed that it was all spin, for then he would have been unfit for his office, or else very stupid. None of the spin before had met with such approval as these had.

'But he talking rubbish !' said a reporter at El Reg at last.

'Just listen to the innocent reporter!' said the a man in the comments, and each one whispered to his neighbour what the reporter had said.

'But he is all spin!' the whole of the people called out at last.

This struck the Advertiser, for it seemed to him as if they were right; but he thought to himself, 'I must go on with the spin now. And the company leader and the BBC spun some more, as they could not be seen to be fools after all.