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Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users
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Old 16-12-2008, 17:50   #31
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

"we're not capacity constrained."

Remove the STM Neil!!!!!!
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Old 16-12-2008, 17:55   #32
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

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Originally Posted by *sloman* View Post
"we're not capacity constrained."

Remove the STM Neil!!!!!!
Well i think what neil said isn't entirely true as there are capacity issues with the current DOCSIS 1.0 network as some UBR's are very oversubscribed but as far as i can see the DOCSIS 3 network should have no capacity issues for some time.

Impz
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:06   #33
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

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Originally Posted by broadbandking View Post
I am right in thinking utorrent passes the throttling? with the encyption option enabled?
Depends on the type of throttling and how it's setup.

It's still pretty easy to identify encrypted torrent traffic as it doesn't change the pattern of the traffic, you just can't say with 100% certainty like if you could just view the headers, it's only 99% certain instead Of course monitoring the traffic patterns is a lot more resource heavy, so it's not that widespread, but it's entirely possible.
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:08   #34
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

Contention? If you cannot provide the maximum advertised speed to the majority of your subscribers at all times of the day then you are a liar who uses gimmicks, questionable advertising and deliberately vague and carefully worded FUPs to sell a substandard product. Its as simple as that.

Also, whenever an Israeli company is drafted in in any monitoring capacity be very afraid. You need to be more concerned about your privacy than whether you'll get that latest ubuntu distro in under 5 minutes. If you are in any doubt about that, you may want to do a little research into Israeli security firms and how involved they are on spying on your every move on a daily basis.
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:18   #35
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

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Originally Posted by O.G View Post
Contention? If you cannot provide the maximum advertised speed to the majority of your subscribers at all times of the day then you are a liar who uses gimmicks, questionable advertising and deliberately vague and carefully worded FUPs to sell a substandard product. Its as simple as that.
Virgin have lied from day one about how their product is able to cope with massive use and downloads. that is all the talk out of the way, but when people take them up on their offer, reality kicks in and they won't admit that they actually can't provide it after all.
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:20   #36
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

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Originally Posted by O.G View Post
Contention? If you cannot provide the maximum advertised speed to the majority of your subscribers at all times of the day then you are a liar who uses gimmicks, questionable advertising and deliberately vague and carefully worded FUPs to sell a substandard product. Its as simple as that.
No, you're a business who has a thing called a bottom line to worry about.

The cost of providing the maximum advertised speed to the majority of your subscribers is FAR higher than the income you're getting from them.

So you have two choices as a consumer:

1) Go get a leased line (or have your ISP raise prices to much closer to leased line levels)
2) Deal with contention.

In the real reality, of one where things cost money and consumers get what they pay for, it's as simple as that.
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:26   #37
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

This practise has already been ruled illegal in the U.S., and Comcast was fined for DPI on BitTorrent packets. Deep packet inspection is also a violation of any type of net neutrlity idea, and represents all kinds of problems. There are also privacy implications to DPI, not that Virgin Media really care about privacy, with another announcement today that Phorm is still on the cards.

DPI under the guise of network management, and the invasion of your privacy in the process, is a precursor to targeted advertising in a slightly different way than that implemented by Phorm. Which is exactly why it was banned in the U.S. by the FCC. Time to call your MP about net neutrality legislation
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:32   #38
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

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Originally Posted by Frank View Post
This practise has already been ruled illegal in the U.S., and Comcast was fined for DPI on BitTorrent packets. Deep packet inspection is also a violation of any type of net neutrlity idea, and represents all kinds of problems. There are also privacy implications to DPI, not that Virgin Media really care about privacy, with another announcement today that Phorm is still on the cards.

DPI, and the invasion of your privacy, is a precursor to targeted advertising in a slightly different way than that implemented by Phorm. Which is exactly why it was banned in the U.S. by the FCC. Time to call your MP about net neutrality legislation
Nice to see you again Frank.

LOL, I was wondering who'd spot that Phorm article first.
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:34   #39
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post
This practise has already been ruled illegal in the U.S., and Comcast was fined for DPI on BitTorrent packets. Deep packet inspection is also a violation of any type of net neutrlity idea, and represents all kinds of problems. There are also privacy implications to DPI, not that Virgin Media really care about privacy, with another announcement today that Phorm is still on the cards.

Quote:
Neil Berkett said that using the company's network to provide more information about users - and therefore create more opportunities to make money out of them - is certainly still on the cards.

Berkett said dealing with illegal filesharing and using information about what customers do online in order to create better targeted online advertising.

But we very strongly believe that particularly with a brand like Virgin you cannot just ram things down customer's throats
I think he's in the wrong job. he sounds like something that should be working for the government.
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:35   #40
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post
This practise has already been ruled illegal in the U.S., and Comcast was fined for DPI on BitTorrent packets. Deep packet inspection is also a violation of any type of net neutrlity idea, and represents all kinds of problems. There are also privacy implications to DPI, not that Virgin Media really care about privacy, with another announcement today that they are going to proceed with Phorm.
Luckily we're nowhere near as stupid as Americans, and the first debate on net neutrality in this country was summed up by saying it is "an answer to problems we don't have, using a philosophy we don't share".

There are EU regulations which specifically allow ISPs to prioritise traffic based on application, so don't hold your breath waiting for a similar ruling on it being illegal here.

Net neutrality is essentially an American created issue with no real world viability. It's dangerous to the sustainability of the internet and is essentially about Amerians beating their chests and going "ZOMG FREEDOM" rather than any usability issues. Every single usability issue for the internet (and any network) points well away from a neutral network and instead towards QoS that targets and prioritises latency dependant traffic at the expense of other traffic.
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:41   #41
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

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LOL, I was wondering who'd spot that Phorm article first.
Ahem...

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34697947-post76.html

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Old 16-12-2008, 18:45   #42
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post
This practise has already been ruled illegal in the U.S., and Comcast was fined for DPI on BitTorrent packets. Deep packet inspection is also a violation of any type of net neutrlity idea, and represents all kinds of problems. There are also privacy implications to DPI, not that Virgin Media really care about privacy, with another announcement today that Phorm is still on the cards.

DPI under the guise of network management, and the invasion of your privacy in the process, is a precursor to targeted advertising in a slightly different way than that implemented by Phorm. Which is exactly why it was banned in the U.S. by the FCC. Time to call your MP about net neutrality legislation
I don't think they were fined, just ordered to stop "discriminating" against one sort of traffic.

"While the FCC action did not include a fine, it does require Comcast to stop its blocking practice by the end of the year. The company must also provide details to the commission on the management techniques it has used and let consumers know details of its future plans."

Link

I think Comcast, and others, may try to get around this by announcing what the traffic management is, rather than hiding it, like Comcast did.

Interesting article here
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:47   #43
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

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Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
Luckily we're nowhere near as stupid as Americans, and the first debate on net neutrality in this country was summed up by saying it is "an answer to problems we don't have, using a philosophy we don't share".
Obviously during the first debate on it they concluded it was a problem they didn't have...because nobody does DPI yet. But problems you will have soon, once this happens Clearly you have not had the pleasure of using a DPI throttled connection, but let me assure you it is a real pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
Net neutrality is essentially an American created issue with no real world viability. It's dangerous to the sustainability of the internet and is essentially about Amerians beating their chests and going "ZOMG FREEDOM" rather than any usability issues. Every single usability issue for the internet (and any network) points well away from a neutral network and instead towards QoS that targets and prioritises latency dependant traffic at the expense of other traffic.
Of course it has real world viability. NOT having net neutrality is dangerous to the suvival of the internet as we know it. It is about choice, and not having one service prioritised over another, which is exactly what makes the internet an innovative place. I would rather the internet be open and innovative, rather than being told what services I can get - at what speeds - by an internet provider who makes money from prioritising those very services.

---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 ----------

Quote:
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I don't think they were fined, just ordered to stop "discriminating" against one sort of traffic.
Fair enough, my bad. Last time I heard they were, but that must have changed as you pointed out
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Old 16-12-2008, 18:54   #44
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

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Obviously during the first debate on it they concluded it was a problem they didn't have...because nobody does DPI yet. But problems you will have soon, once this happens Clearly you have not had the pleasure of using a DPI throttled connection, but let me assure you it is a real pleasure.

Of course it has real world viability. NOT having net neutrality is dangerous to the suvival of the internet as we know it. It is about choice, and not having one service prioritised over another, which is exactly what makes the internet an innovative place. I would rather the internet be open and innovative, rather than being told what services I can get - at what speeds - by an internet provider who makes money from prioritising those very services.
You can have your choice, I'll have a connection that still works fine for web browsing and voip when everyone else is torrenting their asses off.

No one is saying what services you can get at what speeds (that's the biggest myth about net neutrality) what is happening is that when the bandwidth required exceeds the bandwidth available the amount of bandwidth available to non-latency dependant applications will get reduced to ensure there is bandwidth reserved so that latency dependant ones are still usable.

What good is choice if you CAN'T choose to use certain services because your connection has high latency due to a saturated network?
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Old 16-12-2008, 19:05   #45
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Re: Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

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You can have your choice, I'll have a connection that still works fine for web browsing and voip when everyone else is torrenting their asses off.
Well that would be my choice too, I would also like a connection where VoIP and browsing works fine, but where I can also use whatever application I want on the service that I am paying for. Why offer an "up to 50Mbps" service if you can't use it?
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No one is saying what services you can get at what speeds (that's the biggest myth about net neutrality) what is happening is that when the bandwidth required exceeds the bandwidth available the amount of bandwidth available to non-latency dependant applications will get reduced to ensure there is bandwidth reserved so that latency dependant ones are still usable.
Well you are wrong on the first part and correct on the second part. You run into problems, for example, when an ISP decides that ABC Video store is high priority because that store pays them money, and XYZ video store is low priority because that store does not pay them money. What if I want to download from XYZ video store and not ABC video store because XYZ is much cheaper, yet XYZ is unusable and I am forced to use ABC? Why should I use something that is indirectly being dictated to me by an ISP (through available speed) on a connection that I already pay to use.
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Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
What good is choice if you CAN'T choose to use certain services because your connection has high latency due to a saturated network?
Well then don't offer such a high speed yet crippled service, or upgrade the network. It is so ironic that VM launches a 50Mbps service but at the same time makes an off-the-cuff remark about DPI on BitTorrent.
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