Hamas Israel War

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Maggy

There was a time when I would have supported Israel unreservedly. But not now.Not all Palestinians are Hamas supporters and if,if, Israel wants to be seen above reproach then that country needs to have a more measured response.
I'm not happy that the rest of the world has just assumed that Israel have the right to flatten all of Palestine.Not all Palestinians are Hamas or terrorists. If Israel are not careful they could make that the case.

Where did that come from? "... flatten all of Palestine"? You do mean Gaza, don't you?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Hamas deserve to be wiped off the face of the Earth.

Innocent Palestinians do not, but I don’t see how Israel can effectively deal with it.

Sending troops into Gaza would be disastrous, no effective military operation could undertaken in there.

I don’t think there should be any further air strikes.

Israel have made their point and they could flatten Gaza. I think they should focus now on improving their security.

They know who Hamas is they should put all efforts into bringing them to justice or killing them.

I don’t think Israelis want dead Palestinians in retribution, they want dead Hamas.

FWIW, this is an excellent post making a number of good points.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m not sure the point of the word games, Maggy consistently refers to Israel the state. It’s the state carrying out their war.

Words are important. She refers to Israel but it’s not clear if she means the government or the people, or most probably both.

She says that

Not all Palestinians are Hamas or terrorists

and that’s true, but neither are all Israelis the Israel government and I’m sure very many don’t support continued air strikes on Gaza.

We’re supposed to differentiate between innocent Palestinians and Hamas, all the time (although there seemed to be many happy celebrating Palestinians immediately after the attacks…)

Yet we always refer to Israel as an homogenous block, giving tacit support to all Israel government actions, and I’m not sure that’s 100% correct.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

Is Egypt committing war crimes by refusing to allow such things to get into Gaza via its southern border?

It’s odd, don’t you think, that the description of Gaza as a sealed-off prison camp is so often repeated uncritically, as if Israel is in entire control of Gaza’s borders. It isn’t, and never has been.

Not quite accurate. Do you think that Israel would allow Egypt to send shipments into Gaza without it checking them first? From what I understand, the passage of people and goods is strictly controlled under a blockade of Gaza enforced by Egypt and Israel.

Just to reinforce this point:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...ossing-bombed/

Following the IAF’s afternoon strike at the Rafah crossing, the only active land crossing out of Gaza with the border to Israel sealed, Egyptian trucks that were on the way to the Strip with fuel and goods are forced to turn back.

The bombing came in spite of the fact that an Israeli military official this morning advised Palestinians to leave the Gaza Strip for Egypt through Rafah amid the ongoing war with the Hamas terror group. The IDF has since walked back that statement.

Channel 12 claims the crossing was hit to prevent Egypt from providing a lifeline to the besieged Strip.

The IDF has said it hit an underground tunnel for smuggling weapons and equipment in the Rafah area, on the Egypt-Gaza border, but did not confirm or deny hitting the crossing itself.

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip yesterday, including stopping the supply of electricity, food and fuel.

This was from the Times Of Israel, BTW ...

... and yes, Gaza is a sealed-off prison camp

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yet we always refer to Israel as an homogenous block, giving tacit support to all Israel government actions, and I’m not sure that’s 100% correct.

I am not sure who does this to be fair. There are many Israelis who march and condemn the Ultra-Zionist policies in the West Bank but you have to accept, come election time, the Israeli people do elect, time after time, Governments who contain extreme right wing, religious parties who drive the anti-Arab agenda.

---------- Post added at 22:35 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Hamas deserve to be wiped off the face of the Earth.

Innocent Palestinians do not, but I don’t see how Israel can effectively deal with it.

Sending troops into Gaza would be disastrous, no effective military operation could undertaken in there.

I don’t think there should be any further air strikes.

Israel have made their point and they could flatten Gaza. I think they should focus now on improving their security.

They know who Hamas is they should put all efforts into bringing them to justice or killing them.

I don’t think Israelis want dead Palestinians in retribution, they want dead Hamas.

Agreed on points 1 through 5. They have the technology to track and take out Hamas leaders when they surface. Precision strikes are the way forward here.

I would disagree with you last point. If the IDF wanted to kill a Hamas cell or leader holed up in a building, they are content to accept the collateral civilian causalities. This is where they are making a serious error of judgment, not least committing possible war crimes. Not that it will upset the watching world, rather it is baking in the next Hamas or whoever replaces them, atrocity. These children are watching their family and friends being killed before their eyes. They will not forgive and will be the pawns for the next psycho Islamist killer group that emerges from the ashes & rubble.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

<SNIP>
I am not sure who does this to be fair. There are many Israelis who march and condemn the Ultra-Zionist policies in the West Bank but you have to accept, come election time, the Israeli people do elect, time after time, Governments who contain extreme right wing, religious parties who drive the anti-Arab agenda.

We're back to the "what's right wing" question. Is an Israeli right wing party in the same camp as, for example, a Dutch right wing party?

The religious parties are generally known as "Ultras" and they remind me of the Ayatollahs of Iran. Is the Iranian government "extreme right wing"?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

We're back to the "what's right wing" question. Is an Israeli right wing party in the same camp as, for example, a Dutch right wing party?

The religious parties are generally known as "Ultras" and they remind me of the Ayatollahs of Iran. Is the Iranian government "extreme right wing"?

This may help?

What Makes Israel’s Far Right Different

The Religious Zionist Party’s rise isn’t about immigration, crime, or populist economics—it’s driven by Jewish supremacy and anti-Arab racism.

However, there is one exception to this reenactment of the last few elections, and that is the rise of the far right. The polls show that the alliance known as Religious Zionism—a grouping of the Religious Zionist, Otzma Yehudit, and Noam parties—is set to double the number of seats it controls in the 120-member Knesset to as many as 14 in this week’s election. That would make this alliance the third-largest bloc in the Knesset and ensure it gets a pick of plum cabinet portfolios in the event Netanyahu forms a religious-right government.

The ideas and attitudes that comprise Religious Zionism’s platform have hovered on the margins of Israeli politics for a long time, but they had been rejected by the respectable right, represented by people like Netanyahu and former Prime Minister Naftali Bennett. Its platform includes things like annexation of West Bank settlements, expulsion of asylum-seekers, and political control of the judicial system. Its leaders have spoken about deporting Arab (but not Jewish) Israelis who attack soldiers and politicians deemed disloyal to the state.

Israel's most right-wing government agreed under Benjamin Netanyahu

A new government seen as the most right-wing in Israel's history has been agreed, sealing Benjamin Netanyahu's return to power.

Mr Netanyahu, who won elections in November, is set to serve an historic sixth term as prime minster.

His coalition contains far-right parties, including one whose leader was once convicted of anti-Arab racism.

Palestinians fear the new government will also strengthen Israel's hold on the occupied West Bank.

"I have managed [to form a government]," Mr Netanyahu tweeted, just minutes before a midnight local time (22:00 GMT) deadline set by the Israeli President, Isaac Herzog.

It will take over from the outgoing centre-left caretaker government when it is sworn in, which is expected to happen next week.

Mr Netanyahu's coalition partners reject the idea of a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict - the internationally backed formula for peace which envisages an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank alongside Israel, with Jerusalem as their shared capital.

The leader of the Religious Zionism party, which in alliance with two other far-right parties won the third largest number of seats in the knesset (parliament), wants to see Israel annex the West Bank and has been given wide powers over its activities there.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Don’t conflate what the Israel government does to Israelis, similarly as not conflating Palestinians to Hamas.

Fair point, it's easy done in much the same way the Israeli government try to conflate criticism with anti semitism

Originally Posted by Chris

Is Egypt committing war crimes by refusing to allow such things to get into Gaza via its southern border?

It’s odd, don’t you think, that the description of Gaza as a sealed-off prison camp is so often repeated uncritically, as if Israel is in entire control of Gaza’s borders. It isn’t, and never has been.

Pretty sure the only aid getting in is through Egypt or doesn't that matter

Originally Posted by ianch99

Not quite accurate. Do you think that Israel would allow Egypt to send shipments into Gaza without it checking them first? From what I understand, the passage of people and goods is strictly controlled under a blockade of Gaza enforced by Egypt and Israel.

Just to reinforce this point:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...ossing-bombed/



This was from the Times Of Israel, BTW ...

... and yes, Gaza is a sealed-off prison camp

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------



I am not sure who does this to be fair. There are many Israelis who march and condemn the Ultra-Zionist policies in the West Bank but you have to accept, come election time, the Israeli people do elect, time after time, Governments who contain extreme right wing, religious parties who drive the anti-Arab agenda.

Never saw that about the bombing earlier

You know they call those Jews that march and condem the ultra zionists self loathing Jews, like there must be something wrong with them for not going along with their ambitions and what they're doing is just and righteous

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

This may help?

What Makes Israel’s Far Right Different



Israel's most right-wing government agreed under Benjamin Netanyahu

Sorry, doesn't help at all. I asked specific questions that ranged wider than someone's opinion on the Israeli government.

I'll ask again:

Is an Israeli right wing party in the same camp as, for example, a Dutch right wing party?

The religious parties are generally known as "Ultras" and they remind me of the Ayatollahs of Iran. Is the Iranian government "extreme right wing"?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Is the Iranian government "extreme right wing"?

Socially they are. Look at their policies on women's rights, for example.

[jfman]

The Israeli Energy Minister this morning once again confirming the official position of collective punishment - a war crime - by stating there will be no electricity until the hostages are freed.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Sorry, doesn't help at all. I asked specific questions that ranged wider than someone's opinion on the Israeli government.

I'll ask again:

Is an Israeli right wing party in the same camp as, for example, a Dutch right wing party?

The religious parties are generally known as "Ultras" and they remind me of the Ayatollahs of Iran. Is the Iranian government "extreme right wing"?

Why are you obsessed in trying put them into identical categories? They are all on the same spectrum. Take Otzma Yehudit, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otzma_Yehudit

Otzma Yehudit (Hebrew: עָצְמָה יְהוּדִית) or Jewish Power is a far-right political party in Israel, which has been referred to as Kahanist and anti-Arab

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

Far-right politics, or right-wing extremism, refers to a spectrum of political thought that tends to be radically conservative, ultra-nationalist, and authoritarian, often also including nativist tendencies. The name derives from the left–right political spectrum, with the "far right" considered further from center than the standard political right.

Historically, "far-right politics" has been used to describe the experiences of fascism, Nazism, and Falangism. Contemporary definitions now include neo-fascism, neo-Nazism, the Third Position, the alt-right, racial supremacism and other ideologies or organizations that feature aspects of authoritarian, ultra-nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, theocratic, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or reactionary views.

Happy?

[peanut]

I really don't know a lot about what's what, who's who etc and for once I'm glad. This is now just getting too fecked up to hear what's going on. I just don't want to watch or listen to the news right now.

I really dont understand the objective of Hamas with these attacks.

They must surely have understood that mass killing people at a festival, or the torture and massacre of whole families (men, boys, women, girls, babies) when attacking towns/villages would pretty much turn the whole world against them, and result in massive retaliation [and their likely total destruction in the end].

There seems nothing for them to gain, and everything for them to lose.

Originally Posted by Paul

I really dont understand the objective of Hamas with these attacks.

They must surely have understood that mass killing people at a festival, or the torture and massacre of whole families (men, boys, women, girls, babies) when attacking towns/villages would pretty much turn the whole world against them, and result in massive retaliation [and their likely total destruction in the end].

There seems nothing for them to gain, and everything for them to lose.

This article tries to explain

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israe...-always-wanted

In reality, it was the prospect of Israel’s normalization of relations with Saudi Arabia, more than anything else, that drove Hamas to launch its attack.

Such an escalation, the group’s leaders calculated, would obstruct this new diplomatic effort that in their eyes would permanently undermine the standing of the Palestinian cause among Arab and Muslim countries.

Moreover, normalization would solidify an alliance against Iran and its proxies, including Hamas and Hezbollah.

Hamas and its backers in Beirut and Tehran also saw an opportunity. Recent political and social upheaval in Israel convinced Nasrallah that Israel really is—as he described the country years earlier—“weaker than a spider’s web.” In February, he explained that Israel’s political crisis was causing internal weakness and security challenges for the country.

Hamas also understood that the Gaza border was vulnerable to attack since Israeli military officials had reduced the number of Israeli troops there, relying more on surveillance systems, sensors, and remotely automated machine guns. (Hamas used drones to disable parts of the Israeli military’s cellular communications systems, rendering many of these automated systems useless.)

By penetrating Israel’s defenses so spectacularly, Hamas not only sought to encourage others to step up and do the same (saying, in essence, “We attacked Israel, and you can, too”); it also sought to convince Saudi Arabia and other Arab and Muslim states to abandon plans to normalize relations with Israel.

Hamas had to know that Israel would respond to its attack severely, especially given the number of hostages it took into Gaza. And it may well have been part of the group’s plan to draw Israel into a house-to-house battle in the Gaza Strip, where Hamas has built tunnels and extensive urban defenses for the specific purpose of inflicting heavy losses on any Israeli troops that enter the territory.

But the group likely felt emboldened to execute such a massive operation because it had the support of Hezbollah and perhaps other Iranian proxies. Hezbollah has already fired missiles into Israel, attempted to infiltrate Jewish communities on the Israeli side of the border, and launched drone attacks across the border.

Should Israeli ground forces enter Gaza, Hezbollah could open a second or even third front by attacking Israeli soldiers from Lebanon and from the Syrian-controlled portion of the Golan Heights. Remember Arouri’s August statement that Hamas was discussing prospects for a regional war “with all relevant parties.” The potential for horizontal escalation to other fronts is something Hamas is banking on. Even Yemen’s Houthis and Iraq’s Shiite militias have chimed in with threats of their own.

[jfman]

The Israeli Government “cannot confirm” claims by the Israeli Defence Forces that babies were beheaded.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/12/m...ntl/index.html

The US Government have also walked back President Biden’s claim that he had actually seen photos.