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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:13   #841
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dav View Post
One thing I was reading on ElReg was the interview with Phorm where they claim that using this piece of tosh will actually reduce online advertising in the future.

OK...hard to believe, but there you go.

Later on, the statement is made that people who don't use this piece of tosh will still be bombarded with ads. How can these two statements correlate?

If websites are going to realise that targeted ads mean that they can design their pages to incluse fewer ad banners, surely they won't go to the trouble of designing two versions of the same page; one targeted with 4 or 5 ads and one untargeted with 20 ads?
If you opt out of Phorm and are not using ad blocking software then yes you will still be bombarded with ads, just as people are today. Phorm is all about cutting down that stream and increasing the value of each ad that is left - I know it sounds counterintuitive but it actually holds a lot of water - one ad that is twice as likely to be picked up on by the recipient is worth twice as much to the advertiser.

---------- Post added at 09:13 ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by none View Post
AND YET AGAIN YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE ACTUAL QUESTION!!!

Ive already stated that the software on the profiler is phorms, so why respond with the same cut n paste reply thats been appearing elsewhere.

The question was:
Who audits any future software upgrades or amendments to the profilier?

its a simple question no?
In terms of audit, the claims Phorm make as regards systems, policies and procedures are regularly audited by the privacy audit department of Ernst & Young.
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:13   #842
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam View Post
<snip> one ad that is twice as likely to be picked up on by the recipient is worth twice as much to the advertiser.
That all really depends on Phorm becoming a big success - something some of us are going to try very hard to prevent.
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:24   #843
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traduk View Post
PhormUktechteam,

It doesn't matter one iota who owns the profiler or who writes the software because one fact is virtually certain and that is if Phorm did not exist, neither would the profiler.

I am sorry but your answer does nothing to alleviate any fears and if anything you appear to be shifting the responsibility back to the ISP's which I doubt will please them.

There is a question that you can answer (maybe). Can you assure me\us that an opt-out ensures that no data of any kind passes through or is mirrored to the profiler?.
I do not have that information in black and white in front of me so I have passed this over to Phorm.

---------- Post added at 09:21 ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by popper View Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012101340.html
"IP Addresses Are Personal Data, E.U. Regulator Says

By Aoife White
Associated Press
Tuesday, January 22, 2008; Page D01

BRUSSELS -- IP addresses, strings of numbers that identify computers on the Internet, should generally be regarded as personal information, the head of the European Union's group of data privacy regulators said Monday.

Germany's data-protection commissioner, Peter Scharr, leads the E.U. group, which is preparing a report on how well the privacy policies of Internet search engines operated by Google, Yahoo, Microsoft and others comply with E.U. privacy law.

Scharr told a European Parliament hearing on online data protection that when someone is identified by an IP, or Internet protocol, address, "then it has to be regarded as personal data."

His view differs from that of Google, which insists an IP address merely identifies the location of a computer, not who the individual user is.

That is true but does not take into consideration that many people regularly use the same computer and IP address.

Scharr acknowledged that IP addresses for a computer may not always be personal or linked to an individual. For example, some computers in Internet cafes or offices are used by several people.

These exceptions have not stopped the emergence of a host of "whois" Internet sites, which allow users to type in an IP address and will then generate a name for the person or company linked to it.

Treating IP addresses as personal information would have implications for how search engines record data.
...
"
To clarify,

Phorm can never know who you are or where you've browsed. All that is ever stored is a random number, advertiser categories eg sport or travel and a timestamp. Phorm technology cannot tie into the ISPs authentication systems or any other information the ISP holds on their subscriber.

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phormic Acid View Post
I also think Phorm’s claim that no information gets written to disc is probably rather misleading. When people look at their computer at home and think “where am I going to store 500GB of data?”, the answer will be “on a hard disc.” If you’re a business, this isn’t necessarily so. You could get something like the Gear6 CACHEfx.

Gear6 satiates hungry apps with 500GB RAM monster

I’m not suggesting Phorm will be using that. They’ve probably built their own storage system using standard parts.

Phorm have only got to store textual pages. So, not memory-hogging images and videos. Let’s assume the average HTML page is 100KB in size. You could get around 5 million pages into 500GB, allowing for storage overheads.

Many big pages contain a lot of junk. They’re generated on request, using things like PHP. They’ll contain the same code snippets over and over again, lots of white space or even large numbers of HTML comments. That could all be stripped out prior to caching. It could be as simple as stopping passing on the stream when a ‘<’ is reached and starting again on the next ‘>’. You might want to collect the alternative text for images. That would add a bit of complexity, but there’s no reason why it can’t be done in real-time within the stream, saying using some FPGAs.

If you strip out all the crud, you might get down to an average of 25KB per page. Then, you’d get around 20 million pages into 500GB of RAM.
I will forward this to the tech team and get a full reply on this.
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:25   #844
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam View Post
If you opt out of Phorm and are not using ad blocking software then yes you will still be bombarded with ads, just as people are today. Phorm is all about cutting down that stream and increasing the value of each ad that is left - I know it sounds counterintuitive but it actually holds a lot of water - one ad that is twice as likely to be picked up on by the recipient is worth twice as much to the advertiser.
I understand the reasoning that, in theory, more targeted ads means that there will be less square yardage of ad-space on any given website.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, what will actually transpire is that there will be the same square yardage of ad-space, filled with targeted ads this time, with companies such as Phorm making out like bandits and ISP's creaming off extra revenue by using their customers in a morally corrupt way.
So, the claim that Phorm will lead to us NOT being bombarded with ads is completely false.
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:25   #845
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phormic Acid View Post
Consider the following scenario:
1. Person A starts a web browser.
2. Person A attempts to start browsing.
3. The first page person A requests is hijacked and replaced by the Webwise page asking them whether they consent to Phorm monitoring their web browsing.
4. Person A decides to allow Phorm to monitor their web browsing.
5. A non-persistent (session) cookie is sent to the web browser showing that person A has consented.
6. The presence of this session cookie means that future web pages are not replaced by the Webwise consent page.*
7. Person A walks away from the computer without locking it, logging out or switching accounts and without closing their browsing session by closing all the browser windows.
8. Person B comes to the computer.
9. Person B starts browsing the web using the open web browser windows.
10. Person B is not presented with a Webwise consent page.
11. Phorm monitors person B’s web browsing without obtaining their consent.
12. Under RIPA, a criminal offence has now been committed.
I would like to know which, if any, of those statements is in error and why.

I don’t see how Phorm can rely on users behaving in the way they’d like. I think the assumption that one browsing session will be used by only one person is unreasonable and will not be supportable in law. The Internet is an ‘always on’ packet-based network. It’s not like the telephone, where, once you finish your communication with a specific second party, you put the receiver down and completely sever the connection.

*I know there have been comments that cookies are restricted to the domain from which they’ve come. I’m expecting some fairly dirty trick to get around that. As it has been stated that Webwise does not work with Safari, I conclude that Phorm haven’t got this trick working with that browser.
Again I will pass this over to Phorm for clarification
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:27   #846
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Well, it looks like the covert "keep one step ahead of the disgruntled customers" game has started, even before the Phorm system goes live on the VM network.
Anyone following this story from the beginning will have read quite early-on that you could at least partially block the functionality (if not the spying part) of the system by blocking a specific domain. 7 days ago, this domain was clearly identified on the www.webwise.com FAQs as "OIX.net" and so I diligently added it to the blocked domains list of my router.
Guess what? I checked back with the same page this morning, and the same FAQ no longer lists "OIX.net" as the domain to block; it now lists "www.webwise.net".
As I pointed out in a (much) earlier post, it will be SO easy for Phorm to change the name of the server in their system, thus bypassing everyone's block. On this occasion, they've buried this change in their FAQs, but in the future, they may well not even do that.
It is becoming clear that if we want to even hinder their system on our connections, we're going to have to constantly check what they're up to and what connections are being made by our browsers - a full time job in itself.

And this Company expects us to trust them.
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:30   #847
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dav View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
PhormUKtechteam[/b]]
If you opt out of Phorm and are not using ad blocking software then yes you will still be bombarded with ads, just as people are today. Phorm is all about cutting down that stream and increasing the value of each ad that is left - I know it sounds counterintuitive but it actually holds a lot of water - one ad that is twice as likely to be picked up on by the recipient is worth twice as much to the advertiser.
I understand the reasoning that, in theory, more targeted ads means that there will be less square yardage of ad-space on any given website.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, what will actually transpire is that there will be the same square yardage of ad-space, filled with targeted ads this time, with companies such as Phorm making out like bandits and ISP's creaming off extra revenue by using their customers in a morally corrupt way.
So, the claim that Phorm will lead to us NOT being bombarded with ads is completely false.
Exactly.

If a web page has five ads then either I'll see five targeted ads or I'll see five random ads, but I'll still see five ads.
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:35   #848
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucevans View Post
Well, it looks like the covert "keep one step ahead of the disgruntled customers" game has started, even before the Phorm system goes live on the VM network.
Anyone following this story from the beginning will have read quite early-on that you could at least partially block the functionality (if not the spying part) of the system by blocking a specific domain. 7 days ago, this domain was clearly identified on the www.webwise.com FAQs as "OIX.net" and so I diligently added it to the blocked domains list of my router.
Guess what? I checked back with the same page this morning, and the same FAQ no longer lists "OIX.net" as the domain to block; it now lists "www.webwise.net".
As I pointed out in a (much) earlier post, it will be SO easy for Phorm to change the name of the server in their system, thus bypassing everyone's block. On this occasion, they've buried this change in their FAQs, but in the future, they may well not even do that.
It is becoming clear that if we want to even hinder their system on our connections, we're going to have to constantly check what they're up to and what connections are being made by our browsers - a full time job in itself.

And this Company expects us to trust them.
Both oix.net & webwise.com resolve to 88.208.248.102

That's not to say they won't change it again in the future...
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:39   #849
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

The article in the Telegraph on line is a pathetic plea aimed at getting people to think with their wallets.

The much heralded £85 million to BT for implementing this deal equals about a pathetic little £1 per month per BT ADSL customer. If the potential rewards are pro rata, by customer base, with the other ISP's this strikes as an extraordinarily low reward\high risk endeavour. The ISP's can sell their souls for thirty pieces of silver but not mine.
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:48   #850
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobbydaler View Post
Both oix.net & webwise.com resolve to 88.208.248.102
Thanks - I should have checked that first...
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:54   #851
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodgar View Post
Exactly.

If a web page has five ads then either I'll see five targeted ads or I'll see five random ads, but I'll still see five ads.

What Phorm offers is that those five ads are relevant to you - lets say you are a fisherman who drives a Maserati and loves country and western music. Would you rather ads on Italian cars, new fishing rods and the new Dolly Parton album, or ads on bakery books, ju-jitsu training and cardigans. Obviously the former - because it has more relvance and value to you as a person.
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:57   #852
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam View Post
What Phorm offers is that those five ads are relevant to you - lets say you are a fisherman who drives a Maserati and loves country and western music. Would you rather ads on Italian cars, new fishing rods and the new Dolly Parton album, or ads on bakery books, ju-jitsu training and cardigans. Obviously the former - because it has more relvance and value to you as a person.
It makes no difference whatsoever what is in those ads - I ignore ads now, and I'll ignore ads if this abomination is foisted on me. So how does your business model apply to me?
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Old 09-03-2008, 11:59   #853
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Phorm have decided to represent themselves on this forum because of the furore generated in objection to their plans. It cannot have escaped the attention of Virgin Media itself that there are many of their customers less than pleased with potentially being monitored by a third party (despite all the reassurances to the contrary; no disrespect intended).

Virgin Media is a Company of high standard; like all business, it is built on a customer base that pays a fair price for the service provided.

Would it be possible for someone senior in the Company to join this forum and advise its customers of its plans and the reasoning behind them please?

As Mick has repeatedly and rightly said, provided the discussion remains civil, we might find out a bit more than we know about this scheme.
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:07   #854
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhormUKPRteam View Post
What Phorm offers is that those five ads are relevant to you - lets say you are a fisherman who drives a Maserati and loves country and western music. Would you rather ads on Italian cars, new fishing rods and the new Dolly Parton album, or ads on bakery books, ju-jitsu training and cardigans. Obviously the former - because it has more relvance and value to you as a person.
I take no notice of Ads. EVen if they are Ads of things which would interest me. I dont click on Ads, i dont acknowledge them, and wherever possible i block them. All my surfing habits and especially my online purchasing is done from sites i know and trust. Your adverts will not make a difference to this.
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:08   #855
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

During Phorm CEO's interviews he mentioned that website owners, bloggers etc could avail themselves of a liaison with his companies and that could lead to the prospect of an enhanced experience for owners and users.

It looks as though targeted ads are going to be fed to opt-in people as opposed to the supposed random ones already in place. That sounds a lot like strip and replace the existing revenue earners for websites and that strikes me as a potentially wicked form of coercion.

If strip and replace is the method and how can they possibly reduce ads without stripping then the ISP's and Phorm had better be prepared with hundreds of copyright lawyers because a site has a right to expect that what they produce is what the end user gets.

If strip and replace is the method that is going to be adopted then a complaint to the various webmasters with screen grabs of with and without could generate thousands of concurrent court cases. The much heralded £85 million would look pitifully small in the face of a tsunami of claims.
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