Britain outside the EU

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Boris is a buffoon and a proven liar; a breaker of manifesto promises; an eco-loon, possibly driven by his wife. He got this extravagant wallpaper at the behest of his wife with serious questions around the funding and the influence that the funder now has. He is a disaster.

The highlighted parts are why i want him to go, but sushi pension thief has to go as well.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Boris is a buffoon and a proven liar; a breaker of manifesto promises; an eco-loon, possibly driven by his wife. He got this extravagant wallpaper at the behest of his wife with serious questions around the funding and the influence that the funder now has. He is a disaster.

I think Covid has messed with your perception, Seph.

As for breaking manifesto promises - some have been delayed and some have to be temporarily abandoned because of Covid. You must see that.

If you want to see an example of an eco-loon, look no further than Caroline Lucas or The Greta. Boris is simply getting on with a task that is better tackled now to avoid a more disruptive scrabble at the last minute. The world is focussed on 2050 to go carbon neutral and some like China still haven’t worked out how to commit to that date.

Oh, and Boris’s wife and his wallpaper? Hardly our concern, is it?

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I have picked this paragraph of your post as I really cannot be bothered to repeat yet again all those leaver predictions that didn’t come true. The rest you cannot rely on because the future has not happened.

We all know about the red tape and the costs that come with it. But Brexiteers pointed to the benefits of being released from the rest of the bureaucracy associated with the freedom of being outside the EU.

So far, we have only seen the rollover trade deals that we were busily putting into place to ensure that we would continue to benefit from the EU-negotiated deals in the first year. However, we are forging ahead with the trade deal for India right now, and negotiations commence for the trade deal with Canada in April.

It has been explained previously that the EU refused to include services in the trade deals they negotiated because other EU countries would benefit little from this. However, for us, services are the biggest income earner, and inclusion of services in our future trade deals will open up a very nice income stream indeed.

You are wrong on the US situation. We had a draft trade deal with America all ready to go under the Trump administration, but when Biden got in he was not interested in these big deals, preferring to negotiate in packets. So far we have succeeded in getting deals on beef and lamb, which is a good start.

As far as meat imports are concerned, trade deals can specify the standards required for sale in the UK, a little point that many remainers appear not to understand.

We have yet to benefit from Brexit freedoms firstly because these new trade deals will take a few years to negotiate, and secondly, we have yet to witness the ‘bonfire of regulations’ that Boris has said he intends to bring forward now.

Those economic forecasts you refer to are not worth the paper they are written on because they concentrate on what we already know about the downsides. Very few upsides are in that calculation because it is impossible to make a sensible and reasoned prediction as to how businesses will take advantage of their new freedoms, which will be gradually introduced over the coming years.

We have been outside of the EU for less than three months, and yet remainers claim that we should already be seeing massive benefits from Brexit by now if it was to succeed. This is naive and stupid. The new freedoms are nowhere near completed yet. Any real benefits that push us into credit should be seen as medium, not short-term benefits.

You start by saying the remain predictions can't be relied upon because they are based on the future and the future is yet to happen, then go on to explain why leaving will be ace because of all the things you predict will happen in the future despite the future being yet to happen Selective or what!!

Also, I don't think you quite understand how to use a calendar to work out the passage of time as we left the EU over 12 months ago not 3 . Could explain you stance and the moving goalposts on the demise of TV as we know it.

[roughbeast]

Originally Posted by Damien

To be honest I think the issue is settled now and almost everybody - bar some fanatics - have moved on. The argument that we shouldn't have left but now that we have we might as well make the best of it is not hypocrisy nor contradictory. I think there are a few people in the press and the Government that want to keep pushing Brexit as a divisive issue because it sells papers and is politically useful but there isn't much juice in that issue.

Characterising the millions who would wish us to move closer to the EU economy as fanatics, is very insulting. When you see hundreds of small exporters and importers struggling to manage the costs and delays to the trade they had built up with the EU, surely you can see why people would want us at least to restore frictionless trade with the EU.

There's a reason why our small exporters and importers would want to trade with the EU rather than the wider world: 1) Shorter distances mean cheaper shipping, 2) Shorter distance involve smaller carbon footprints and 3) JIT delivery is more predictable over shorter distances. Replacing EU trade with worldwide trade automatically builds in those additional drawbacks and costs. Add in the increased red tape and fees at borders, then one can see why small businesses are failing and throwing in the towel daily, especially given that the checks built into transactions with the EU are more complex than anywhere else in the world. Restoring a customs union of some kind would avert all of that.

Many of us would like to start now building a movement to rejoin the EU because we have lost so many individual and freedoms by leaving and we are aware of the disadvantages for trade and European cooperation. We are not a few fanatics. We are real patriots, wanting the best for our country and people. We reject the rabid and xenophobic nationalism that underpinned the Leave campaign, trying to wrest an imaginary independence from Johnny foreigner in Brussels, little realising that all trade deals and treaties require some loss of sovereignty, especially when there are much bigger fish in the sea.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/587442468465687/

Originally Posted by roughbeast

Characterising the millions who would wish us to move closer to the EU economy as fanatics, is very insulting.

We reject the rabid and xenophobic nationalism that underpinned the Leave campaign, trying to wrest an imaginary independence from Johnny foreigner in Brussels

What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, etc.

[roughbeast]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I have picked this paragraph of your post as I really cannot be bothered to repeat yet again all those leaver predictions that didn’t come true. The rest you cannot rely on because the future has not happened.

We all know about the red tape and the costs that come with it. But Brexiteers pointed to the benefits of being released from the rest of the bureaucracy associated with the freedom of being outside the EU.

So far, we have only seen the rollover trade deals that we were busily putting into place to ensure that we would continue to benefit from the EU-negotiated deals in the first year. However, we are forging ahead with the trade deal for India right now, and negotiations commence for the trade deal with Canada in April.

It has been explained previously that the EU refused to include services in the trade deals they negotiated because other EU countries would benefit little from this. However, for us, services are the biggest income earner, and inclusion of services in our future trade deals will open up a very nice income stream indeed.

You are wrong on the US situation. We had a draft trade deal with America all ready to go under the Trump administration, but when Biden got in he was not interested in these big deals, preferring to negotiate in packets. So far we have succeeded in getting deals on beef and lamb, which is a good start.

As far as meat imports are concerned, trade deals can specify the standards required for sale in the UK, a little point that many remainers appear not to understand.

We have yet to benefit from Brexit freedoms firstly because these new trade deals will take a few years to negotiate, and secondly, we have yet to witness the ‘bonfire of regulations’ that Boris has said he intends to bring forward now.

Those economic forecasts you refer to are not worth the paper they are written on because they concentrate on what we already know about the downsides. Very few upsides are in that calculation because it is impossible to make a sensible and reasoned prediction as to how businesses will take advantage of their new freedoms, which will be gradually introduced over the coming years.

We have been outside of the EU for less than three months, and yet remainers claim that we should already be seeing massive benefits from Brexit by now if it was to succeed. This is naive and stupid. The new freedoms are nowhere near completed yet. Any real benefits that push us into credit should be seen as medium, not short-term benefits.

I'm not sure you read my post carefully.

The economist scenarios for different models of Brexit took into account the opportunities and drawbacks of Brexit. That is what economists do. They take all the factors and give us best and worst case scenarios to base our decisions on. It was the Leave press that misrepresented them and characterised them as part of Project Fear. Infact, they were project reality.

The possible deal with Trump's regime was nowhere near completion. As junior partners, and therefore rule takers, we would have struggled to maintain the sorts of standards we had developed with our EU partners as equal members. Trump and now Biden, know our desperation. The bargain the US will drive will be a hard one which we are in no position to resist if we want to replace the volume of trade we are steadily losing from the EU. For the USA also read India, China, Brazil, Russia and the PTO. We will end up dumbing down some of our hard-won product standards to match those of our larger partners. Note that our farmers are already very unhappy with the competition they will be getting as a result of that piddling Australian deal. You ain't seen nothing yet. TRade deals involving many, carbon-emitting miles, will be replacing the sound arrangements we had with our close neighbours. The timing of this massive commitment to greater carbon emissions could not be more ironic.

I am glad you acknowledged that it will take years to negotiate all those wonderful trade deals and arrangement and to benefit from all those opportunities. What is the government doing to enable the transition and soften the pain over these decades whilst we discover the sunny uplands. Little from what I can see. They haven't even bothered to replace the sums parts of our country got from the EU's regional development fund. We have saved all those billions in donations to the EU budget, but the government aren't using anything like the amount we have saved to uplevel Cornwall, the NE or the NW or rescue struggling farmers. It looks like Mogg's 50 years estimate is about right.

I haven't heard a single notable Remainer declare that we should be feeling the benefits of Brexit already. You made that accusation, so you could shoot it down. If the Remainers and Mogg thought that the benefits would take decades, they are hardly going to be looking for them yet. What they are looking for is some sort of road map of how those benefits are going to be realised and an indication of what those benefits really are. The small fry trade deals with Japan and Australia are hardly an indication of the promised land. The Japan deal is far inferior to the one the EU signed with Japan, shortly after us. (Guess who was the bigger partner?) Remainers are also looking for a plan to deal with and mitigate the current explosion in red tape caused by Brexit. There is no plan because the negotiations were so rushed that Johnson didn't expect these disadvantages. He rushed negotiations through to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny, but in doing so missed out on the parliamentary expertise that would have told him to plan for an red tape explosion or negotiate a deal that included frictionless trade. So much for the sovereignty of Parliament. So much for wresting democracy from Brussels.


You mentioned a 'bonfire of regulations'. We both know that to keep it simple we have rolled over most of the relevant EU regulations to do with trade, food production standards, manufacturing standards, services, health and safety, environmental protection human rights etc Sensible move. Tell me. Given that we helped establish these regulations and often initiated them, in the days before our political pendulum swung to the extreme right, what regulations are going to be thrown on the bonfire. We were on the winning side 97% of the time when these regulations were tailor-made in Brussels for each country by the multi-national team of civil servants who work there, and then voted on by our MEPs. What regulations do we now think we had got so wrong then? I know we have swung well to the right since 2010, but I still struggle to see what rules from my above list of categories we can suddenly ditch. The environment, manufacture standards, health and safety and food standards are important. Often we gold plated EU rules to make them even tougher here. Dare I mention Manx kippers?
.

[1andrew1]

Also worth mentioning that the EU has successfully negotiated the removal of Trump's aluminium and steel tariffs whilst the UK has not.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-eu-...ay-2021-10-30/

Plus the fact that the EU is seeking deals with the likes of India too. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Plus the fact that the EU is seeking deals with the likes of India too.

Which means little because as you said,

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

You start by saying the remain predictions can't be relied upon because they are based on the future and the future is yet to happen, then go on to explain why leaving will be ace because of all the things you predict will happen in the future despite the future being yet to happen Selective or what!!

Also, I don't think you quite understand how to use a calendar to work out the passage of time as we left the EU over 12 months ago not 3 . Could explain you stance and the moving goalposts on the demise of TV as we know it.

Starting with your last paragraph, yes, my typo. I don’t know where that came from, I meant to say ‘less than 18 months’. How strange!

On the first point, what I’m trying to say is that the forecasts are unable to predict future income, whereas losses from pulling out of the EU are known. So the credit side of the balance sheet is unknown.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by Chris

A Twitter poll with a leading question thinly disguised as background information … your grasp of irony is as shaky as Alanis Morissette.

Brilliant.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I think Covid has messed with your perception, Seph.

As for breaking manifesto promises - some have been delayed and some have to be temporarily abandoned because of Covid. You must see that.

If you want to see an example of an eco-loon, look no further than Caroline Lucas or The Greta. Boris is simply getting on with a task that is better tackled now to avoid a more disruptive scrabble at the last minute. The world is focussed on 2050 to go carbon neutral and some like China still haven’t worked out how to commit to that date.

Oh, and Boris’s wife and his wallpaper? Hardly our concern, is it?

As for breaking manifesto promises - some have been delayed and some have to be temporarily abandoned because of Covid. You must see that.

What - the tax rises? No temporary abandonment was necessary - just a revised timetable and rationale should have been declared.

If you want to see an example of an eco-loon, look no further than Caroline Lucas or The Greta. Boris is simply getting on with a task that is better tackled now to avoid a more disruptive scrabble at the last minute. The world is focussed on 2050 to go carbon neutral and some like China still haven’t worked out how to commit to that date.

Boris is a fool. We're in perfect storm territory here.

1. Where is the electricity to power millions of electric cars?
2. Who can afford electric cars & when will they be an affordable price?
3. What about terraced housing streets?
4. Ditto heat pumps? And the radiator changes that will needed?
5. Importing gas when we can produce it ourselves?
6. Re-wilding (prolly a Carrie idea) when we should produce our own food?

Anyone who defends Boris' programme is a fool as well.

Oh, and Boris’s wife and his wallpaper? Hardly our concern, is it?

Of course it's our business. He took money from a donor. Nobody donates such a large sum without getting something in return - dodgy in propriety terms.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

A Twitter poll with a leading question thinly disguised as background information … your grasp of irony is as shaky as Alanis Morissette.

Oh dear, you clearly do not and apparently cannot get the irony: talkRadio, a radio station employing people like Julia Hartley-Brewer and Mike Graham, do a Brexit poll and the result above. It's hilarious ..

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:43 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Of course, there was no deception by remainers, was there? I struggle to think of a single prediction of theirs that has come true so far.

Forget that poll. It is not a true representation of what the people of this country think. Not only that, but some are having understandable doubts owing to the uncertainty about so many things at the moment, most of which are nothing to do with Brexit. When the dust settles, people will regain their confidence.

Deflection. The Leave campaign lied pure and simple. They lied and the country is permanently impoverished as a result in so many ways.

You also missed the irony of a talkRadio poll returning the result it did.

[roughbeast]

Originally Posted by Chris

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Plus the fact that the EU is seeking deals with the likes of India too.
Which means little because as you said,

Quote:
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

I wonder who will get the best deal with India, a country of 65 million people or an economic bloc of 500 million people?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Indeed, as I'm the complete opposite. I voted Remain based on what I "didn't know". I just thought the status quo is probably the safest option.

Now, 6 years later, with all that I know now, I'd vote leave, without hesitation.

I don't really care what you do or don't think. I care about the millions who believed the liars and voted thinking that they and their children would be better off.

---------- Post added at 19:17 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------

Originally Posted by roughbeast

I'm not sure you read my post carefully.

The economist scenarios for different models of Brexit took into account the opportunities and drawbacks of Brexit. That is what economists do. They take all the factors and give us best and worst case scenarios to base our decisions on. It was the Leave press that misrepresented them and characterised them as part of Project Fear. Infact, they were project reality.

The possible deal with Trump's regime was nowhere near completion. As junior partners, and therefore rule takers, we would have struggled to maintain the sorts of standards we had developed with our EU partners as equal members. Trump and now Biden, know our desperation. The bargain the US will drive will be a hard one which we are in no position to resist if we want to replace the volume of trade we are steadily losing from the EU. For the USA also read India, China, Brazil, Russia and the PTO. We will end up dumbing down some of our hard-won product standards to match those of our larger partners. Note that our farmers are already very unhappy with the competition they will be getting as a result of that piddling Australian deal. You ain't seen nothing yet. TRade deals involving many, carbon-emitting miles, will be replacing the sound arrangements we had with our close neighbours. The timing of this massive commitment to greater carbon emissions could not be more ironic.

I am glad you acknowledged that it will take years to negotiate all those wonderful trade deals and arrangement and to benefit from all those opportunities. What is the government doing to enable the transition and soften the pain over these decades whilst we discover the sunny uplands. Little from what I can see. They haven't even bothered to replace the sums parts of our country got from the EU's regional development fund. We have saved all those billions in donations to the EU budget, but the government aren't using anything like the amount we have saved to uplevel Cornwall, the NE or the NW or rescue struggling farmers. It looks like Mogg's 50 years estimate is about right.

I haven't heard a single notable Remainer declare that we should be feeling the benefits of Brexit already. You made that accusation, so you could shoot it down. If the Remainers and Mogg thought that the benefits would take decades, they are hardly going to be looking for them yet. What they are looking for is some sort of road map of how those benefits are going to be realised and an indication of what those benefits really are. The small fry trade deals with Japan and Australia are hardly an indication of the promised land. The Japan deal is far inferior to the one the EU signed with Japan, shortly after us. (Guess who was the bigger partner?) Remainers are also looking for a plan to deal with and mitigate the current explosion in red tape caused by Brexit. There is no plan because the negotiations were so rushed that Johnson didn't expect these disadvantages. He rushed negotiations through to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny, but in doing so missed out on the parliamentary expertise that would have told him to plan for an red tape explosion or negotiate a deal that included frictionless trade. So much for the sovereignty of Parliament. So much for wresting democracy from Brussels.


You mentioned a 'bonfire of regulations'. We both know that to keep it simple we have rolled over most of the relevant EU regulations to do with trade, food production standards, manufacturing standards, services, health and safety, environmental protection human rights etc Sensible move. Tell me. Given that we helped establish these regulations and often initiated them, in the days before our political pendulum swung to the extreme right, what regulations are going to be thrown on the bonfire. We were on the winning side 97% of the time when these regulations were tailor-made in Brussels for each country by the multi-national team of civil servants who work there, and then voted on by our MEPs. What regulations do we now think we had got so wrong then? I know we have swung well to the right since 2010, but I still struggle to see what rules from my above list of categories we can suddenly ditch. The environment, manufacture standards, health and safety and food standards are important. Often we gold plated EU rules to make them even tougher here. Dare I mention Manx kippers?
.

I want to commend you on your posts. They are clear, detailed and address the points that the Leave supporters here will not address honestly. The reason being is that they are unable to. They will deflect or will reinvent their original positions, a new reality stating: "Well, we knew all along that that there will be problems, pain and loss of revenue, etc".

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Starting with your last paragraph, yes, my typo. I don’t know where that came from, I meant to say ‘less than 18 months’. How strange!

On the first point, what I’m trying to say is that the forecasts are unable to predict future income, whereas losses from pulling out of the EU are known. So the credit side of the balance sheet is unknown.

If the loses were known, why was there a range of potential downsides put forward by the remain side?