Brexit (Old)

[daveeb]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Got the last one right and number 1 was nearly right.

The answers are;

1 - Sweden
2 - Germany
3 - Macedonia

Bo, my Swedish buddy apparently echos the general 'cautious europhilia' of Sweden. They like the EU but are wary of too much integration too fast. He admitted that it would be a cold day in hell before Sweden joined the Euro! There is some resentment in Sweden that some countries in the EU haven't been taking their fair share of refugees, hence the rise of the SD party in the election this weekend. Many Swedes would like a pro-rated acceptance of refugee numbers across the EU which of course would go down like a cup of cold sick in the UK.

Ralf, my German friend is in his early 50s and so is still of that fiercely anti-nationalistic post WWII mindset of many Germans of that generation. There is very much a 'never again' attitude with older Germans and he is deeply concerned about the rise of nationalism both inside and outside of Germany.

Natasha, our Macedonian doesn't have a high opinion of Greece as their closest neighbours. In her opinion, the financial crisis in Greece was almost all self inflicted.

Jon you should get yourself over to Brussels, get a headset on and show our mottley bunch how it's done

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Got the last one right and number 1 was nearly right.

The answers are;

1 - Sweden
2 - Germany
3 - Macedonia

Bo, my Swedish buddy apparently echos the general 'cautious europhilia' of Sweden. They like the EU but are wary of too much integration too fast. He admitted that it would be a cold day in hell before Sweden joined the Euro! There is some resentment in Sweden that some countries in the EU haven't been taking their fair share of refugees, hence the rise of the SD party in the election this weekend. Many Swedes would like a pro-rated acceptance of refugee numbers across the EU which of course would go down like a cup of cold sick in the UK.

Ralf, my German friend is in his early 50s and so is still of that fiercely anti-nationalistic post WWII mindset of many Germans of that generation. There is very much a 'never again' attitude with older Germans and he is deeply concerned about the rise of nationalism both inside and outside of Germany.

Natasha, our Macedonian doesn't have a high opinion of Greece as their closest neighbours. In her opinion, the financial crisis in Greece was almost all self inflicted.

1. Sweden, in common with many other smaller European countries, bears its fair share of the blame for the leave vote in the U.K. It’s all very well your friend lamenting that they have lost an ally against the Franco-German axis at the heart of the EU, but the reality is that too many of them were prepared to hide under their desks and leave the UK to take them on alone. They wanted the UK to do their dirty work for them and were content to leave us looking isolated in order to avoid upsetting Frau Merkel. This strategy has come back to bite them on the bum.

2. Germany burned Europe to the ground, twice, in the space of a generation. It’s all very well Germans of a certain age feeling post-war guilt but dealing with it is their business. If they feel the need to lock themselves in a padded cell for fear they might do it again, then they are at liberty to do so. They must not, however, judge us with the measure by which they judge themselves. We didn’t start the fire and we do not need to be locked up in federal hell alongside them. We are capable of making policy ourselves, without bringing the world to the brink of Armageddon or gassing six million of our own citizens in the name of racial purity. Any whinging about British attitudes to immigration should be set in that context before any German has the right to accuse us of behaving like it’s 1939, a year in which they were invading half of Central Europe and we were still hoping to peacefully stop them.

3. Your Macedonian friend it correct, Greece brought it on themselves; they got drunk on cheap credit. The EU, however, is guilty of leaving an alcoholic alone in a room with an unlocked liquor cabinet.

Also, it’s easy to see why a country that would immediately be a net beneficiary of EU spending would be so keen to join, and why it would be so disappointed to see one of the biggest net contributors planning to leave. Come next March, the magic money tree will become somewhat less fruitful than certain continental treasuries have been used to.

It's been 73 years since the war ended - we really need to let it go.

Using the 2nd World War to pillory modern day Germans is like blaming modern day Brits for the Amritsar Massacres, the Boer concentration camps, the way we partitioned India, the Bengal Famine, and other less salubrious actions of the British Empire.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Can't access anything on that link apart from how to subscribe to FT.

Try this route via Google.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...3fHwtneihorokB

[jonbxx]

Germanys attitude in relation to WWII is interesting. They certainly don't hide their past. Go to Berlin to see examples of this. The Topography of Terror exhibition and holocaust memorials are amazing exhibits right in the centre of the city.

There is acceptance of what happened but also a clear admission of how it happened. It's the understanding of the how the rise of Hitler occurred and how this lead to the holocaust, etc happened is how we avoid these things happen again. This acceptance is ingrained in the culture of your common German but they have moved on from the sackcloth and ashes repentance and are now wanting this not to happen again.

Should the architects of the German war of aggression of 1939-1945 be forgiven? No. Should we punish todays Germans for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers? Also no.

Germany is a fascinating country. They have had two massive upheavals rewriting the way their country works in the end of WWII and the end of the cold war and reunification. Berlin is the most extreme case of this and would encourage anyone to visit that city

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

It's been 73 years since the war ended - we really need to let it go.

Using the 2nd World War to pillory modern day Germans is like blaming modern day Brits for the Amritsar Massacres, the Boer concentration camps, the way we partitioned India, the Bengal Famine, and other less salubrious actions of the British Empire.

I understand Hugh's point of view from the perspective of Nazism. But German hegemony is in their blood and the Greater German Empire is part of their government's plan. They dominate EU economics, seem to have the final say on everything, have an 8% or higher GDP surplus (at the expense of the rest of Europe). We are escaping from this and are about to re-embark on our own venture.

---------- Post added at 17:40 ---------- Previous post was at 17:36 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Germanys attitude in relation to WWII is interesting. They certainly don't hide their past. Go to Berlin to see examples of this. The Topography of Terror exhibition and holocaust memorials are amazing exhibits right in the centre of the city.

There is acceptance of what happened but also a clear admission of how it happened. It's the understanding of the how the rise of Hitler occurred and how this lead to the holocaust, etc happened is how we avoid these things happen again. This acceptance is ingrained in the culture of your common German but they have moved on from the sackcloth and ashes repentance and are now wanting this not to happen again.

Should the architects of the German war of aggression of 1939-1945 be forgiven? No. Should we punish todays Germans for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers? Also no.

Germany is a fascinating country. They have had two massive upheavals rewriting the way their country works in the end of WWII and the end of the cold war and reunification. Berlin is the most extreme case of this and would encourage anyone to visit that city

I know Germany very well, having lived there for a year and visiting regularly. I'm a fluent German speaker and so get to know stuff about what they mean when they say something.

The average German is a top person - from a human point of view. But from a normal psychological standpoint, their pride in their economic achievement leads to natural pride that Germany has more control over the EU than any other country. That's human nature. So these nice people are quite content with German hegemony as it currently sits and develops.

Originally Posted by Hugh

It's been 73 years since the war ended - we really need to let it go.

Using the 2nd World War to pillory modern day Germans is like blaming modern day Brits for the Amritsar Massacres, the Boer concentration camps, the way we partitioned India, the Bengal Famine, and other less salubrious actions of the British Empire.

Well yes they should. In this instance it’s jonbxx’s German friend who chose to characterise the UK’s current position by reference to “pre-1939”. Whether this is a widespread belief in Germany or just his own, it was his choice to liken today to the state of Europe in the 1930s. That being the case he really needs to drop any idea that there is any kind of equivalence between Germany then and the U.K. now.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Chris

Well yes they should. In this instance it’s jonbxx’s German friend who chose to characterise the UK’s current position by reference to “pre-1939”. Whether this is a widespread belief in Germany or just his own, it was his choice to liken today to the state of Europe in the 1930s. That being the case he really needs to drop any idea that there is any kind of equivalence between Germany then and the U.K. now.

Apologies, I wasn’t clear. His point was that the UK was at its peak before 1939. Post war Britain was nowhere near what it was before the war. Within a few years of the end of the war we were nearly broke, the empire dissolved and the last gasp was the Suez crisis. The pre 1939 was the UK pre 1939, not Germany

[Sephiroth]

I can't see a lot of difference from an ascendancy perspective between the UK and Germany now.

Chamberlain the appeaser; May the appeaser; Merkel the Fuehrer (sort of).

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

But German hegemony is in their blood and the Greater German Empire is part of their government's plan.

What is your source for that information? Sure, Germany has the largest economy in Europe but that doesn't mean the country's government is going to Empire-build or Germans are born to dominate other countries.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I can't see a lot of difference from an ascendancy perspective between the UK and Germany now.

Chamberlain the appeaser; May the appeaser; Merkel the Fuehrer (sort of).

Don’t you mean ‘doing what we would like to do, only being more efficient and doing it better’?

e.g. being the main economic power in Europe.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I understand Hugh's point of view from the perspective of Nazism. But German hegemony is in their blood and the Greater German Empire is part of their government's plan. They dominate EU economics, seem to have the final say on everything, have an 8% or higher GDP surplus (at the expense of the rest of Europe). We are escaping from this and are about to re-embark on our own venture.

---------- Post added at 17:40 ---------- Previous post was at 17:36 ----------



I know Germany very well, having lived there for a year and visiting regularly. I'm a fluent German speaker and so get to know stuff about what they mean when they say something.

The average German is a top person - from a human point of view. But from a normal psychological standpoint, their pride in their economic achievement leads to natural pride that Germany has more control over the EU than any other country. That's human nature. So these nice people are quite content with German hegemony as it currently sits and develops.

Due to The apportionment system, Germany will naturally have the most MEPs as they have the biggest population at 96 for the 2019 election. Funnily enough, they have the lowest level of representation at 860,000 citizens per MEP. Malta has 77,000 per MEP but only 6 MEPs.

If anything, Germany doesn’t have enough influence in the European Parliament for its population. The EU wide apportionment is 1 MEP for every 716,000 citizens.

Numbers here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appo...ean_Parliament

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

What is your source for that information? Sure, Germany has the largest economy in Europe but that doesn't mean the country's government is going to Empire-build or Germans are born to dominate other countries.

Oh please. What do you think has been happening for the past 70 years? You have twisted my meaning. German hegemony is founded on their economic strength and thus the extent to which they can influence what happens to other EU members (see Greece for details, and now the UK as regards Brexit. The United States of Germany is on the way to being under the name European Union.

---------- Post added at 19:41 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

Don’t you mean ‘doing what we would like to do, only being more efficient and doing it better’?

e.g. being the main economic power in Europe.

Whatever. If you combine the German psyche with their being the main economic power in Europe, then when stuff happens (like Greece), Germany calls the shots. Now extend that out to a sustained period of German economic surplus against sustained deficits in the other EU countries, who's top dog and calling the shots? And Germany is already doing it.

---------- Post added at 19:49 ---------- Previous post was at 19:41 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Due to The apportionment system, Germany will naturally have the most MEPs as they have the biggest population at 96 for the 2019 election. Funnily enough, they have the lowest level of representation at 860,000 citizens per MEP. Malta has 77,000 per MEP but only 6 MEPs.

If anything, Germany doesn’t have enough influence in the European Parliament for its population. The EU wide apportionment is 1 MEP for every 716,000 citizens.

Numbers here - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appo...ean_Parliament

The statistical facts about Germany's MEPs do not affect Germany calling the shots. For a start the German governing/coalition party sits in the largest MEP bloc with 217 members. And remember the EU Parliament is as hegemonist as Germany in that they want to trump national parliaments. With Germany controlling the dosh, you can see what you'll get.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I can't see a lot of difference from an ascendancy perspective between the UK and Germany now.

Chamberlain the appeaser; May the appeaser; Merkel the Fuehrer (sort of).

This is an utterly ridiculous statement.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Damien

This is an utterly ridiculous statement.

Depends on the interpretation.

Germany is economically (and politically) stronger than the UK today. As it was in 1939. The Chamberlain and May bits of my statement are obvious comparisons. When Juncker came to 10 Downing Street, after the meeting it is reported that he got straight on the phone to Merkel. Without Nazi connotations, Merkel, being Chancellor of Germany, is their Fuehrer which suited my May/Chamberlain analogy.

Remember, my pitch is to attack German hegemony and frame that in the context of Brexit.