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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-03-2008, 16:53   #796
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Popper,

I read the links you posted and it looks like phorm's PR guys had better go back to Phorm's CEO for another briefing.

The PR guy is stating that on opt-out is a total by-pass and is quite emphatic about it whereas the CEO is on record as stating that data will still be mirrored to Phorm but discarded. You cannot have two opposing answers to the same question and one would assume that the correct answer is the CEO's version. I particularly picked up on the CEO's term "mirrored" because as we know in computer parlance that can represent a raid array set-up whereby the contents of hard-drive are duplicated on another.

I also liked the almost pleading request to come visit us and be convinced. In theory their product has massive merits to them and the ISP's and in a perfect world should be secure. We don't live in a perfect world.
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Old 08-03-2008, 17:07   #797
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]

Some answers from someone who contacted us on behalf of Phorm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phorm
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34501465-post603.html

Re RIPA and Data Protection Act

The DPA regulates the processing of personal data (as defined in the Act). As outlined above Phorm's technology is designed in such a way that it does not collect or store any information from which it is possible to identify an individual. Because we at Phorm treat Data Protection issues with the highest degree of importance, our ISPs, in conjunction with us, will obtain the consent of their users to the Phorm service and users are free to withdraw that consent and opt out of the service at any time. RIPA is intended to protect the privacy of private communications. As outlined above, the Phorm service respects users' privacy at all times by ensuring that users remain anonymous and by obtaining the user's consent to the service via our ISPs. We have considered RIPA with great care and are satisfied that our technology does not breach RIPA. We welcome ideas on ongoing oversight.

OIX has been built with the highest standards of consumer privacy protection in mind which has been verified by Ernst & Young and the world's foremost privacy advocate, Simon Davies of Privacy International. In addition, our 3 ISP partners have done their own detailed due diligence and are entirely satisfied that this poses no threat whatsoever to their customers or their personal data.

Re: prior companies

Some time ago, Kent did have an adware company called PeopleOnPage. This was not spyware, and the distinction between the two is very important. Adware is a software component designed to deliver ads as part of a legitimate commercial product or service.



Spyware or Malware has four essential features:



1. It is installed on a user's computer without their knowledge or

consent

2. It is hidden so that the user cannot find it

3. It is designed to be difficult or impossible for the user to remove

4. Does some harm (often illegal) to the user or their computer: in the

case of spyware, stealing information (particularly passwords, credit card details etc.)



Spyware/Malware is surreptitiously installed, is hidden, cannot be removed and does intentional harm, e.g. stealing data.



The PeopleOnPage program, in contrast:



1. Was installed as part of a download process in which the user had to

read and confirm acceptance of an End User Licence Agreement (EULA). In the EULA, the user had to explicitly accept that in return for the free software, they would be shown advertising.

2. Was clearly displayed in the user¹s Add/Remove programs listing.

3. Was removable by using the standard Add/Remove program dialogue.

4. Was designed to legally show targeted advertising to users, based on

their browsing behaviour as part of a commercial relationship with software providers and advertisers, and with the consent and knowledge of the user.



PeopleOnPage was installed with knowledge and consent, could be identified and deleted, and was not intended to cause harm or steal information.



POP was gradually phased out by Kent due to his changing the direction of the Company which culminated in Phorm and the creation of OIX. OIX has been built with the highest standards of consumer privacy protection in mind which has been verified by Ernst & Young and the world's foremost privacy advocate, Simon Davies of Privacy International. In addition, our 3 ISP partners have done their own detailed due diligence and are entirely satisfied that this poses no threat whatsoever to their customers or their personal data.



http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34501469-post604.html

When you opt out, your browsing information is not passed to Phorm, and as a result, you won't see any targeted ads. If you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34501475-post606.html

When you opt out, your browsing information is not passed to Phorm, and as a result, you won't see any targeted ads. If you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server. Your browsing behaviour will not be sent to Phorm if you opt out. If you are looking for an opt-out mechanism that doesn't rely on the presence of a cookie, you can set your browser (Firefox, IE and Opera) to block cookies from our ad-serving domain, webwise.net.
---------- Post added at 16:07 ---------- Previous post was at 16:00 ----------

Consent -

I do not consider an "opt-out" service to be truly consensual.


"verified by Ernst & Young and the world's foremost privacy advocate, Simon Davies of Privacy International" -

Simon Davies' work for Phorm was *not* done on behalf of Privacy International, but was instead done by his new privacy start-up called 80/20 Thinking Ltd.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7280791.stm

I have read elsewhere that Privacy International are rather annoyed at Phorm suggesting that they approved of the system.


PeopleOnPage - Don't know much about it, but F-Secure still classed it as Spyware...

http://www.f-secure.com/sw-desc/peopleonpage.shtml



Opt-out -

I still don't think this has been fully explained.

It says "When you opt out, your browsing information is not passed to Phorm, and as a result, you won't see any targeted ads. If you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server. Your browsing behaviour will not be sent to Phorm if you opt out.", yet elsewhere they have stated that whether opted out or not, your data still passes to the "Profiler" equipment based at the ISP (which although allegedly owned by the ISP, is still a Phorm piece of equipment running Phorm software, it just apparently doesn't send your info any further for ad targeting if you're "opted-out".)
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Old 08-03-2008, 17:19   #798
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I think there is a deliberate policy now to muddy the waters and make is so very difficult for ordinary users to wade through it. They know they are not going to convince the sort of people on forums but they can get the masses to walk into it under a misplaced belief that it will benefit them.
 
Old 08-03-2008, 17:31   #799
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Hi all
Further to prior posts I will try and get the name changed over.

Secondly, you may all be interested to know there will be a second live web chat with the CEO and CIO of Phorm early next week. Details will follow on the board and via email to Mick.
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Old 08-03-2008, 17:37   #800
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

According to Symantec.... Apropos is classified as Spyware with a high risk category. It supplies details on it's removal which are in essence very complicated. The damage it can cause is to put the CPU into a 100% usage state which for all intents and purposes stops any other function and hard resetting (power button crashing) is the only way out.

Of the four criteria listed the only one that escapes the total falsehood claims is the fact that users chose to or were duped into installing the thing. Are we going to be duped into the next generation exploitation.

The publisher of the Spyware is named as Peopleonpage and we are all now familiar who was responsible for that.

IMO this PR exercise is so crude and so filled with obvious get out of jail attempts that I get more concerned every time they put something in print.
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Old 08-03-2008, 17:39   #801
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

According to various articles on eweek.com, F-Secure believed that was implicated with nasty practices.

For example,
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/Wh...s-Coming-From/
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Old 08-03-2008, 17:46   #802
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Saying that once opted out, no data is passed through the phorm system is a blatant lie. Even when opted out data is ALWAYS mirrored to the profiler which is part of the phorm system.

The profiler may be owned by the ISP, HOWEVER, it would be obsolete if it were not for its requirement in the chain of the phorm system. Thus, no phorm equals no profiler. Ergo the profiler is part of the phorm system and as such phorm is in part responsible for its use.

Why? Because its phorms software running on the profiler. Therefore phorm does play a significant part in the functionality of the profiler.

SO STOP SAYING “If you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server” because your just using semantics.

Further more, who audits any future software upgrades or amendments to the profilier?
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Old 08-03-2008, 17:52   #803
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Hi

Taken from the questions posed online;
The Profiler is owned by the ISP. If someone opts out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm. Phorm provides the software for the profiles, just like Cisco, for example, provides software for an ISP router. The ISP can see exactly what data is being passed in and out of its systems and has complete control over it.
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Old 08-03-2008, 18:00   #804
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam View Post
Hi

Taken from the questions posed online;
The Profiler is owned by the ISP. If someone opts out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm. Phorm provides the software for the profiles, just like Cisco, for example, provides software for an ISP router. The ISP can see exactly what data is being passed in and out of its systems and has complete control over it.
AND YET AGAIN YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE ACTUAL QUESTION!!!

Ive already stated that the software on the profiler is phorms, so why respond with the same cut n paste reply thats been appearing elsewhere.

The question was:
Who audits any future software upgrades or amendments to the profilier?

its a simple question no?
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Old 08-03-2008, 18:08   #805
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam View Post
Hi

Taken from the questions posed online;
The Profiler is owned by the ISP. If someone opts out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm. Phorm provides the software for the profiles, just like Cisco, for example, provides software for an ISP router. The ISP can see exactly what data is being passed in and out of its systems and has complete control over it.
Cisco has a reputation as supplier of network equipment.
Phorm (under former Company names) has a reputation associated with rootkits and spyware software.
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Old 08-03-2008, 18:09   #806
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

PhormUktechteam,

It doesn't matter one iota who owns the profiler or who writes the software because one fact is virtually certain and that is if Phorm did not exist, neither would the profiler.

I am sorry but your answer does nothing to alleviate any fears and if anything you appear to be shifting the responsibility back to the ISP's which I doubt will please them.

There is a question that you can answer (maybe). Can you assure me\us that an opt-out ensures that no data of any kind passes through or is mirrored to the profiler?.
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Old 08-03-2008, 18:10   #807
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

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Old 08-03-2008, 18:29   #808
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam View Post
Hi

Taken from the questions posed online;
The Profiler is owned by the ISP. If someone opts out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm. Phorm provides the software for the profiles, just like Cisco, for example, provides software for an ISP router. The ISP can see exactly what data is being passed in and out of its systems and has complete control over it.
so would you please put a drawing diagram up of how you connect to the isp connection
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Old 08-03-2008, 18:34   #809
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I have no questions for Phorm. Discussion with Phorm is irrelevant and a red herring.

It is in their vested interest to offer platitudes, explanation and qualification for their proposals and they are here only to placate and manipulate.

I am not a customer of Phorm. I do not want Webwise, OIX, any form of 'Thought Police' monitoring or useless, distracting, irritating advertisements.

I am a customer of Virgin Media. I expect the customer contract of trust and privacy to be honoured. In return, I pay for the service I receive. Virgin Media should not expect to be paid twice for that service.

Phorm are greedy for high returns for minimum effort and VM are taking a big risk riding that gravy train. Time for a re-think VM before your dithering is exploited by rivals.

Phorm are not the issue. Virgin Media are the issue.
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Old 08-03-2008, 18:44   #810
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Discussion with Phorm is irrelevant and a red herring.
yes I'm inclined to agree, although we must continue to oppose phorm by any means necessary.

Quote:
It is in their vested interest to offer platitudes, explanation and qualification for their proposals and they are here only to placate and manipulate.
yup, and it will continue to do so in the coming weeks/months as their share price wavers in the midst of all this controversy.

Quote:
I am not a customer of Phorm. I do not want Webwise, OIX, any form of 'Thought Police' monitoring or useless, distracting, irritating advertisements.

I am a customer of Virgin Media. I expect the customer contract of trust and privacy to be honoured. In return, I pay for the service I receive. Virgin Media should not expect to be paid twice for that service.

Phorm are greedy for high returns for minimum effort and VM are taking a big risk riding that gravy train. Time for a re-think VM before your dithering is exploited by rivals.
very well put
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