Brexit (Old)

And what makes you think the public will believe this information?

We was told lies before from either campaigns. It will be a re-run of baseless fear mongering from the Remain side,, that turned out to be fiction last time.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

And what makes you think the public will believe this information?

We was told lies before from either campaigns. It will be a re-run of baseless fear mongering from the Remain side,, that turned out to be fiction last time.

Nothing will change even if there was a second referendum as it will be the same as it was before with lies and baseless fear mongering from both sides sadly so what is the point of a second referendum as it will change nowt...

---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

No, I am happy with just the one. A vote where before it takes place, the electorate is presented with an informed, detailed and coherent plan (on both sides) with a clear and authoritative risk analysis of the short, medium and long economic projections.

And you think today modern obfuscating incompetent politicians are going to do that as you will be sadly mistaken as they have considerable trouble just trying to organise a piss up in a brewery.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by denphone

Nothing will change even if there was a second referendum as it will be the same as it was before with lies and baseless fear mongering from both sides sadly so what is the point of a second referendum as it will change nowt...

---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------



And you think today modern obfuscating incompetent politicians are going to do that as you will be sadly mistaken as they have considerable trouble just trying to organise a piss up in a brewery.

As ever you don't seem to be offering any alternatives Den.

Saying everyone and everything is as a bad as each other and nothing is worth bothering with, is a very dark outlook, even for me ! ( you may however be right )

[Carth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

. . an informed, detailed and coherent plan (on both sides) with a clear and authoritative risk analysis of the short, medium and long economic projections.

you mean lots of guesswork and speculation based on . . guesswork and speculation, much of which will be slanted towards the 'doomsday' scenario they've been preaching about for 2 years.


I can't think of any groups, committees, official bodies, etc etc that I would trust to give an unbiased report on what may happen in the near/far future . .

I know what I voted for thanks

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mr K

As ever you don't seem to be offering any alternatives Den.

Alternative for what? as we had one referendum where the citizens of this country had a clear decision to make and even though l did not vote for Brexit one respects the democratic vote that took place which obviously you quite clearly don't.

Its not the publics fault that ever since the referendum its been a almighty mess as the blame for that quite clearly lies of the feet of the incompetent untrustworthy politicians the public have put their trust in.

---------- Post added at 12:45 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

Saying everyone and everything is as a bad as each other and nothing is worth bothering with, is a very dark outlook, even for me ! ( you may however be right )

l am usually far more wrong then l am right but at least l admit it.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Carth

you mean lots of guesswork and speculation based on . . guesswork and speculation, much of which will be slanted towards the 'doomsday' scenario they've been preaching about for 2 years.


I can't think of any groups, committees, official bodies, etc etc that I would trust to give an unbiased report on what may happen in the near/far future . .

I know what I voted for thanks

How can you know what you voted for ? We don't know if they'll be any deal or what will be in any deal. That's why a vote on any deal is needed, its NOT rerunning the referendum which Brexit supporters don't seem or want to understand. If we reject the deal then Govt have to renegotiate or we leave with no deal.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

How can you know what you voted for ?

I voted to leave, that's what I voted for

It was simply Leave or Remain, black or white, left hand or right hand.

I didn't (and still don't) need anyone explaining the consequences (whether good or bad) of my vote . . I chose leave because of my personal appraisal of whether to continue in a failing EU or go it alone.

Others voters had their own reasons

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by denphone

Alternative for what? as we had one referendum where the citizens of this country had a clear decision to make and even though l did not vote for Brexit one respects the democratic vote that took place which obviously you quite clearly don't.

Its not the publics fault that ever since the referendum its been a almighty mess as the blame for that quite clearly lies of the feet of the incompetent untrustworthy politicians the public have put their trust in.

---------- Post added at 12:45 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------



l am usually far more wrong then l am right but at least l admit it.

An alternative to democracy that's what the remain camp is longing for .

[Sephiroth]

A referendum on the deal runs a serious risk of ending up in no-man’s Land. A leave/remain referendum will have a definite outcome with an easier to cope with situation arising.

Whilst I support a second referendum for reasons stated earlier, I am not advocating one. In other words, if one happens, I won’t be bleating.

I remind the Remainers that the EC are scheming autocrats. I pick on Juncker and in particular Selmayr for their obsession with punishing the UK for calling time on their racket.

Again I remind certain Remainers of the blind eye they appear to be turning to German hegemony, their blatant engineering of the Euro’s value; to France’s blatant manipulation of the corrupt CAP, to the blatantly unfair fisheries policy and the list can go on.

I don’t want it and if we end up remaining, I want to continue fighting those thugs. Another word starting with a t.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

A referendum on the deal runs a serious risk of ending up in no-man’s Land. A leave/remain referendum will have a definite outcome with an easier to cope with situation arising.

Whilst I support a second referendum for reasons stated earlier, I am not advocating one. In other words, if one happens, I won’t be bleating.

I remind the Remainers that the EC are scheming autocrats. I pick on Juncker and in particular Selmayr for their obsession with punishing the UK for calling time on their racket.

Again I remind certain Remainers of the blind eye they appear to be turning to German hegemony, their blatant engineering of the Euro’s value; to France’s blatant manipulation of the corrupt CAP, to the blatantly unfair fisheries policy and the list can go on.

I don’t want it and if we end up remaining, I want to continue fighting those thugs. Another word starting with a t.

I get the feeling you don’t like Germans...

On the fisheries policy, would it be more fair if our representative to the fisheries committee actually turned up to meetings?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I get the feeling you don’t like Germans...

On the fisheries policy, would it be more fair if our representative to the fisheries committee actually turned up to meetings?

Not at all. That would be irrational. I merely point out that the German government of the day engineered the basket of currencies going into the Euro that enabled Germany to reduce the Euro's value against the DM - which has now led to German hegemony. Juncker (whom I do dislike) calls Merkel first.

As to your fisheries remark, I don't know whether or not our representative turned up to meetings and why a decision not to attend was made. What I do know is that our representative will always be outvoted. You can't really be condoning the current fisheries situation for the UK; right?

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Not at all. That would be irrational. I merely point out that the German government of the day engineered the basket of currencies going into the Euro that enabled Germany to reduce the Euro's value against the DM - which has now led to German hegemony. Juncker (whom I do dislike) calls Merkel first.

As to your fisheries remark, I don't know whether or not our representative turned up to meetings and why a decision not to attend was made. What I do know is that our representative will always be outvoted. You can't really be condoning the current fisheries situation for the UK; right?

The Deutschmark was low at the time of the inception of the Euro due to the costs of reunification. In contrast, other currencies such as the lira and drachma were overvalued due to the incoming euro. This of course helped countries that export a lot such as Germany and hindered net importers such as the southern eurozone nations. The Deutschmark certainly wasn’t overvalued against the euro but the introduction of the new currency did help but this was due to semi-external factors.

Our representative to the fisheries committee was a certain Nigel Farage who turned up to one out of 42 meetings. Can’t be outvoted if you don’t turn up I guess.

Please feel free to explain how the current fisheries quotas are unfair considering DEFRA is reponsible for divvying up the UKs quota and sells these to foreign companies at the expense of small fishermen. For example, 99% of the mackerel landed is by 33 vessels - http://www.thelandmagazine.org.uk/ar...-uks-fisheries

Edit - interesting article on Germany and its relationship with the Euro here - https://www.forbes.com/sites/miltone.../#5913630c27da

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't see how this is that different to Obama commenting about the trade deal. Both seem to be getting involved in British politics. You've spent the last two years complaining about that. Obama said we would go to the back of the queue for a trade deal if Brexit went ahead, Trump is saying we won't get one if this deal goes ahead.

The one distinction is that I would say now it is a real time issue for Brits to deal with - so for example now Trump has to act and he can chose when and how to prioritize what he likes. Obama on the other hand was opining in hopes of effecting the actual vote, trying to influence the result.

Not basing his view on what the outcome already was.

For the record I think both are factual statements ofI what the US policy is at the time.

Trump is fine to tell Brits to shove it - it is not his responsibility to offer a trade deal, now was it Obama's. This is all going to have to go through the US senate and there is zero appetite for this right now.

As I said I think the fact he was weighed in on other elements of British politics is more surprising....

Oh I dunno...the US has a habit of meddling in the elections of other nations - just not ours usually. I think that we just thought that we were above such stuff and were worth more in the eyes of the US than a third world banana republic (when all we do is behave like one).

We probably were at one point too, (like under the tenure of Blair or Thatcher) but our influence has since waned.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

The Deutschmark was low at the time of the inception of the Euro due to the costs of reunification. In contrast, other currencies such as the lira and drachma were overvalued due to the incoming euro. This of course helped countries that export a lot such as Germany and hindered net importers such as the southern eurozone nations. The Deutschmark certainly wasn’t overvalued against the euro but the introduction of the new currency did help but this was due to semi-external factors. [SEPH]: I think you've worded that loosely. As in what did you mean by "inception"? Reunification occurred on 03-Oct-1990 ($1 = DM1.55). The Euro conversion rates were established based on market rates at 31-Dec-1998 ($1 = DM1.78). The change over that period was a devaluation of 15%.

On the same dateline points, the USD was worth respectively ITL1150 and ITL1750. The change over that period was a devaluation of 51%.

On that basis, the DM benefitted from the contribution made to the basket by Italy and other countries. Greece was excluded in that year.

Our representative to the fisheries committee was a certain Nigel Farage who turned up to one out of 42 meetings. Can’t be outvoted if you don’t turn up I guess.
[SEPH]: It doesn't matter who the representative was. The problem started when Spain & Portugal joined the EEC in 1986 and tipped a fragile balance.

<SNIP>

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You know people who wanted to remain in the common market? That would be the worst of all worlds and it will be a contradiction in terms. There would be absolutely no benefit to staying in the Common Market and Brexiting, because there would be no benefits for the UK.

Umm are you forgetting about the lack of tariffs and barriers to the entire SM? I would call that a benefit...

Brexit means leaving the EU and its institutions and going it alone as we did prior to our joining the common market. That's what people who want to leave voted for, albeit for different reasons.

The referendum was in and out on membership of the union, that is all. None of those institutions that require you to be a member would be somewhere that we could join but what about all those that do not require you to be a member? Like the medicines agency, for example. All the stuff to do with national security / technology and research etc?

(I mean technically we could still be a part of the CU / SM, too (without full membership) but I don't want to start terrifying you.)

What's this obsession with cake? Is this connected to the obesity crisis, I wonder? I don't like the stuff anyway.

Nah that is just Boris being Boris ; his way of saying that we get cake / get to eat it and then turning to May and explaining that no matter what (deal or no deal) she can't have any cake, either way.

I am surprised by your attitude, Dave, really. Do you not want what's best for Britain? Continued co-operation with the EU, but not within the EU, frictionless borders and yet the ability to make our own trade deals? Why shouldn't we strive for that?

How about because it is not realistically likely to ever happen?