Government & Post Election Discussion

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

That was aimed at the CBI, wasn't it?

Incidentally, there is little point linking to The Times or The Financial Times as they are for subscribers only and the rest of us can't read it. You could copy and paste the relevant parts that make your point, however.

If we can find a solution to Brexit then finding our way behind a paywall is not beyond the skills of mankind.

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The end deal will be favourable to business and to Britain.

What are you basing that notion on?

The Government actually wants businesses to plan for a no deal Brexit to show the EU negotiators that we are ready to pull out of a deal if necessary.

No, they want those preparations because they know that their "dear Leader" (May) is about the most incompetent leader on the planet.

This is a negotiation, and if you want to win a negotiation, you have to toughen up.

How many times do people have to say...there is nothing to negotiate. You either agree to the founding principles of the EU, or you do not. You are not going to negotiate a FTA without resolving a soft border in Ireland...you don't get SM access, without free movement. You don't get to negotiate some pie in the sky position. You either accept it, or you don't. You don't get to "negotiate" your way out of it, though.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

How many times do people have to say...there is nothing to negotiate. You either agree to the founding principles of the EU, or you do not. You are not going to negotiate a FTA without resolving a soft border in Ireland...you don't get SM access, without free movement. You don't get to negotiate some pie in the sky position. You either accept it, or you don't. You don't get to "negotiate" your way out of it, though.

Does the EU want the UK to go with a hard, full on no deal Brexit?

If yes, then lets do it, no 'negotiations'

If No, then the EU are negotiating to save . . err . . whatever they are trying to save.

Anyone can negotiate a deal, whether it's a good deal is another matter

[Chloé Palmas]

That is the part of this that you are not getting ; there is no deal to negotiate. Does not matter how many times over May says that it is a negotiation / process under way the "no" will mean just that from Brussels. No to SM access without FM, no to FT without CU membership etc. These are not negotiations - they are refusals.

If they go hard / a hard leave then there is nothing to negotiate. If it is soft / a soft leave then there are simply going to be rules and stipulations that the UK must abide by and given that it can't then perks are going to be forsakes I suppose.

The EU won't decide which option the UK goes for - but whichever it is, the UK will have to abide by whatever is required in return ; whether that be sacrificing access or independence. One or the other.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

What are you basing that notion on?



No, they want those preparations because they know that their "dear Leader" (May) is about the most incompetent leader on the planet.



How many times do people have to say...there is nothing to negotiate. You either agree to the founding principles of the EU, or you do not. You are not going to negotiate a FTA without resolving a soft border in Ireland...you don't get SM access, without free movement. You don't get to negotiate some pie in the sky position. You either accept it, or you don't. You don't get to "negotiate" your way out of it, though.

Ah-ha: someone else on the bandwagon now openly trying to convince everyone that nothing can be changed - everything is fixed - we are all doomed.

This is the same kind of mentality Churchill faced in the late 1930s with Hitler, with the majority of the Commons arguing that appeasement was the only option, and interestingly, the public disagreed with their politicians then too.

You can keep saying that May is weak all you like, but your assessment does not take into account that she has got us this far in the negotiations despite the remainers and Brexiteers in her own party, a lack of a majority in the Commons, a Labour Party in disarray who cannot remember whether it wants to leave or stay and so just tries to disrupt and an EU determined to do all it can to upset the will of our electorate. Most would have given up long ago.

---------- Post added at 09:42 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

That is the part of this that you are not getting ; there is no deal to negotiate. Does not matter how many times over May says that it is a negotiation / process under way the "no" will mean just that from Brussels. No to SM access without FM, no to FT without CU membership etc. These are not negotiations - they are refusals.

If they go hard / a hard leave then there is nothing to negotiate. If it is soft / a soft leave then there are simply going to be rules and stipulations that the UK must abide by and given that it can't then perks are going to be forsakes I suppose.

The EU won't decide which option the UK goes for - but whichever it is, the UK will have to abide by whatever is required in return ; whether that be sacrificing access or independence. One or the other.

The EU certainly has a choice. Start negotiating or the UK becomes your aggressive competitor. Their choice.

Frankly, I am OK with no deal and fall out, but understanding that this will cause short term disruption which many people are uneasy with, I am happy for Theresa May to attempt a deal in everyone's interests.

However, make no mistake, a no deal with the EU will hurt both sides, and while the UK will recover, the EU will slip into disadvantage, trying to compete with our lower tax rates, reduced bureaucracy and our new found entrepreneurism.

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Ah-ha: someone else on the bandwagon now openly trying to convince everyone that nothing can be changed - everything is fixed - we are all doomed.

Hardly - I never thought that they were doomed if we left them alone in the first place, to begin with.

This is the same kind of mentality Churchill faced in the late 1930s with Hitler, with the majority of the Commons arguing that appeasement was the only option, and interestingly, the public disagreed with their politicians then too.

Chaimberlain was a coward but then again, he too was a Tory. Kind of like May - the coward wing of the party...until a real man (like Churchill comes along).

The last time I called May out, your delicate sensitivities got a little bent out of shape and you got all huffy, made up a load of crap and I had to school you some - this time I thought that I would spare you the embarrassment / indignity but you apparently seem hell bent, on going there.

People need strength and courage / commitment. May is pathetic and now you have resorted to comparing me to someone who appeased Hitler, just because someone spoke ill of your little princess.

Suck it up, some. I won't take this crap from you every single post.

You can keep saying that May is weak all you like, but your assessment does not take into account that she has got us this far in the negotiations despite the remainers and Brexiteers in her own party, a lack of a majority in the Commons, a Labour Party in disarray who cannot remember whether it wants to leave or stay and so just tries to disrupt and an EU determined to do all it can to upset the will of our electorate. Most would have given up long ago.

Yeah but her life long dream was to be PM and like Hillary (who wanted the same equivalent as President) she has nothing left in her life. May is weak and pathetic ; strong and stable my ass - she is like a puppet with every cabinet member having their hand up her butt. Just depends who has the biggest hands I suppose.

You are correct - most would have given up long ago. She doesn't have a shred of dignity to do so. There is a word for women like her, you know it so I won't pollute the thread with it.

Want me to feel sorry for her that she can't keep the remainers and leavers in one piece? I thought a minute ago you said (and I quote) " that she has got us this far in the negotiations despite..."

You then follow it up with:

"Most would have given up long ago."

So what is it you want me to do - admire her resilience or pity her? Can't be both - you tell me. I am not the type to follow though - that is her.

I'll just try be a little more delicate about your fawning adoration of her - I would hate to upset you given what an admirable job you do, of defending her.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Hardly - I never thought that they were doomed if we left them alone in the first place, to begin with.



Chaimberlain was a coward but then again, he too was a Tory. Kind of like May - the coward wing of the party...until a real man (like Churchill comes along).

The last time I called May out, your delicate sensitivities got a little bent out of shape and you got all huffy, made up a load of crap and I had to school you some - this time I thought that I would spare you the embarrassment / indignity but you apparently seem hell bent, on going there.

People need strength and courage / commitment. May is pathetic and now you have resorted to comparing me to someone who appeased Hitler, just because someone spoke ill of your little princess.

Suck it up, some. I won't take this crap from you every single post.



Yeah but her life long dream was to be PM and like Hillary (who wanted the same equivalent as President) she has nothing left in her life. May is weak and pathetic ; strong and stable my ass - she is like a puppet with every cabinet member having their hand up her butt. Just depends who has the biggest hands I suppose.

You are correct - most would have given up long ago. She doesn't have a shred of dignity to do so. There is a word for women like her, you know it so I won't pollute the thread with it.

Want me to feel sorry for her that she can't keep the remainers and leavers in one piece? I thought a minute ago you said (and I quote) " that she has got us this far in the negotiations despite..."

You then follow it up with:

"Most would have given up long ago."

So what is it you want me to do - admire her resilience or pity her? Can't be both - you tell me. I am not the type to follow though - that is her.

I'll just try be a little more delicate about your fawning adoration of her - I would hate to upset you given what an admirable job you do, of defending her.

Well, you've certainly twisted that nicely, Chloé!

First of all, I have not compared you with anyone - I don't know you. I was commenting on an attitude of hopelessness, negativity and fear of signing up to change.

I am not in awe of Theresa May, but I feel she deserves some credit for getting us where we are despite the adversity she faces. You can campaign to ditch May if you want to, but who else is there who can get even close to Brexit without fudging it?

Yes, most would have given up long ago and that is why she deserves credit. She's got a lot further than Cameron ever did.

Chamberlain had to deal with a country that wasn't ready for war and was scarred by the last one. He also, privately, seemed to be well aware he couldn't trust Hitler. The historical view of him as an idiot is unfair IMO.

I also don't think invoking WW2 is helpful here anyway.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Damien

Chamberlain had to deal with a country that wasn't ready for war and was scarred by the last one. He also, privately, seemed to be well aware he couldn't trust Hitler. The historical view of him as an idiot is unfair IMO.

I also don't think invoking WW2 is helpful here anyway.

Learn from history, Damien.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Learn from history, Damien.

That's in response to what?

Originally Posted by Damien

That's in response to what?

Godwin’s Law, I think.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Damien

That's in response to what?

To your comment about the war being brought into it. What do you think it was responding to? There wasn't a lot else in your post, after all.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I am not in awe of Theresa May, but I feel she deserves some credit for getting us where we are despite the adversity she faces

Seriously, where is this exactly? What has she done that deserves this credit? The "adversity she faces" is all of her and her party's making.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Seriously, where is this exactly? What has she done that deserves this credit? The "adversity she faces" is all of her and her party's making.

May I remind you that the electorate voted to Brexit? Yes, May’s Party is split, as is Corbyn’s (did you notice the number of Labour MPs that voted against Corbyn in favour of the withdrawal bill?) She has successfully got us through Phase I of the Brexit talks, got the EU to sign up to a £40bn (as opposed to £100bn Brexit bill, as speculated by the Remainers) and we are now close to bringing these negotiations to a close. I think she has achieved a massive amount despite these difficulties, and even when she finally clinches it, people like yourself will just look away. But the majority of the electorate will eventually reward her for doing what they asked of her.

Only those who don’t believe in democracy will fail to recognise what she has done.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Only those who don’t believe in democracy will fail to recognise what she has done.

Very strange statement ...

You know full well that it was her decision and her's alone to call the General Election that reduced her ability to make serious decisions and, consequently, led to the current near civil war within her party at a time when the country is on a precipice. You couldn't make it up ..