Will Scotland Leave the UK?

[jfman]

This is why I genuinely welcome English engagement with the debate.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Like the Irish who separated?

Best we don't repeat the same mistakes made with the Irish, things get a little untidy over there.


I doubt krankie will allow scots to be known as British or even worse English, it'll be ok for scots living in the rest of the uk they could apply for settled status, as for those who live in Scotland but didn't want to break up the union they will have to get a travel visa to visit the other nations or try to get over the wall that we will have built.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

What you’re proposing is removing British citizenship from people born with it, and who voted against separation. That would be an extraordinary state of affairs and would have international repercussions. This is not the same as removal of EU so-called “citizenship” post-Brexit, which is actually no more than a gloss on a web of international treaties. British is a nationality recognised everywhere.

On the other hand, would "British" still exist long-term without Scotland?

[Carth]

I could be wrong (failing memory, too much Brandy ) but I'm sure I remember not being allowed to write 'English' on many official forms, it had to be British.

Not best pleased as I recall

That would be because your nationality is British/U.K. - English isn’t a nationality, and hasn’t been for over 300 years...

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

On the other hand, would "British" still exist long-term without Scotland?

“British” existed before English, Scottish or Welsh. The Romans called this island Britannia, and by the time they retreated back to Italy the Britons occupied (what we now call) Wales, the far southwest and far north of England and southern Scotland.

Also, unless the SNP tries to declare a socialist republic, the monarch of Great Britain will still be enthroned and a cultural concept of Britishness will continue, and the government of the remaining UK would be entirely at liberty to continue to define British in whatever way it chose and to continue to grant the people of the island citizenship of Britain.

Whatever happens, the idea of anyone who currently holds British citizenship being stripped of it in the event of Scotland separating from the UK is fanciful.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Chris

“British” existed before English, Scottish or Welsh. The Romans called this island Britannia, and by the time they retreated back to Italy the Britons occupied (what we now call) Wales, the far southwest and far north of England and southern Scotland.

Also, unless the SNP tries to declare a socialist republic, the monarch of Great Britain will still be enthroned and a cultural concept of Britishness will continue, and the government of the remaining UK would be entirely at liberty to continue to define British in whatever way it chose and to continue to grant the people of the island citizenship of Britain.

Whatever happens, the idea of anyone who currently holds British citizenship being stripped of it in the event of Scotland separating from the UK is fanciful.

In the same way people wouldn't be stripped of EU citizenship?
They would acquire Scottish citizenship instead. Similar to where any part of an existing country breaks away.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

That would be because your nationality is British/U.K. - English isn’t a nationality, and hasn’t been for over 300 years...

It's more like the bank of mum n dad funding everyone else

Originally Posted by nomadking

In the same way people wouldn't be stripped of EU citizenship?
They would acquire Scottish citizenship instead. Similar to where any part of an existing country breaks away.

As I stated earlier, so-called "EU citizenship" is nothing of the sort. EU citizenship is a brand name for certain entitlements a citizen of France has when visiting Germany, or vice versa. If EU citizenship was essentially the same thing as true national citizenship, it would be possible to go to an EU consulate in your home country and apply for it. But you can't, because there's no such process. You can only get it as a side-effect of holding actual citizenship of a country that is a member of the EU.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Chris

As I stated earlier, so-called "EU citizenship" is nothing of the sort. EU citizenship is a brand name for certain entitlements a citizen of France has when visiting Germany, or vice versa. If EU citizenship was essentially the same thing as true national citizenship, it would be possible to go to an EU consulate in your home country and apply for it. But you can't, because there's no such process. You can only get it as a side-effect of holding actual citizenship of a country that is a member of the EU.

You still don't get the the benefits of EU citizenship, so why should Scots still get any benefit from UK citizenship?

How many examples are there, where part of country splits off, that citizens of the new country, automatically keep citizenship and rights of the old?

Originally Posted by nomadking

You still don't get the the benefits of EU citizenship, so why should Scots still get any benefit from UK citizenship?

How many examples are there, where part of country splits off, that citizens of the new country, automatically keep citizenship and rights of the old?

Ireland would appear to be the obvious case study here.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

What you’re proposing is removing British citizenship from people born with it, and who voted against separation. That would be an extraordinary state of affairs and would have international repercussions. This is not the same as removal of EU so-called “citizenship” post-Brexit, which is actually no more than a gloss on a web of international treaties. British is a nationality recognised everywhere.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth
I should add something to the list:

6/
Citizenship - Scots on the Scottish electoral roll (and descendants) on the day prior to SCEXIT will no longer hold British citizenship from 12 months after secession. The rules for granting British nationality to Scots will need to be tight. For example, time-limited period for requesting retention of British nationality; if born in England or Wales, then allowed; if born in Scotland but normally resident in England or Wales, then allowed.

From my perspective, we are in the strange position of not wanting to break the UK up, but if they're that stupid then we're forked on making it easy for them to split or difficult so as to deter them.

As we're (England & Wales) not going to cave in financially (are we?), then a split will indeed be bitter. The Nats will be trying to screw us for every penny, we'll be totally resistant which will lead to impasse and a decision point for the Nats; we don't have to do anything. Should be interesting.

Well, of course, I didn't post a fully worked idea as it's highly complex. When the Czechs and Slovaks split, people on either side had one year to choose their nationality. But that wasn't a problem in those days because dual-citizenship was not permitted in those countries at the time. The UK allows multiple-citizenship, so it'll require an ingenious scheme to get this right.


To come to the question of those Scots who will have voted "No" to independence: Chris makes a sound point. If Scotland allows dual-nationality (England will probably insist on this as part of the Withdrawal Agreement) that will sort itself out. Except that there will be anomalies. A Scot may have dual-citizenship. Can an English person, with no connection to Scotland also claim Scottish citizenship? This was done in Northern Ireland.

Separation will be so fraught but we can't let Scotland have our cake to eat. They might eventually join the EU and their desire to spit on England/Wales will only increase.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Well, of course, I didn't post a fully worked idea as it's highly complex. When the Czechs and Slovaks split, people on either side had one year to choose their nationality. But that wasn't a problem in those days because dual-citizenship was not permitted in those countries at the time. The UK allows multiple-citizenship, so it'll require an ingenious scheme to get this right.


To come to the question of those Scots who will have voted "No" to independence: Chris makes a sound point. If Scotland allows dual-nationality (England will probably insist on this as part of the Withdrawal Agreement) that will sort itself out. Except that there will be anomalies. A Scot may have dual-citizenship. Can an English person, with no connection to Scotland also claim Scottish citizenship? This was done in Northern Ireland.

Separation will be so fraught but we can't let Scotland have our cake to eat. They might eventually join the EU and their desire to spit on England/Wales will only increase.

If left to the SNP that will be when they balance the books. AKA when hell freezes over.

[Hom3r]

Our only hope is the SNP lose and Sturgeon has to quit, like Salmond did

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

[COLOR="blue"]Well, of course, I didn't post a fully worked idea as it's highly complex. When the Czechs and Slovaks split, people on either side had one year to choose their nationality. But that wasn't a problem in those days because dual-citizenship was not permitted in those countries at the time. The UK allows multiple-citizenship, so it'll require an ingenious scheme to get this right.

On the contrary - in Czechoslovakia, people were either Czech or Slovak citizens from around 25 years before the eventual splitting of the country in two, so there was no controversy because nobody lost 'Czechoslovak' citizenship on the day of the split. There were arrangements after the split to allow people to apply for citizenship that they didn't have under certain conditions.

The better analogy is the Irish Free State, whose citizens remained British Subjects, as far as British and other Commonwealth governments were concerned, from 1922, and whose British citizenship status was properly resolved by Act of Parliament in 1949. Similarly, anyone with one Irish grandparent, from north or south, is automatically entitled to Irish citizenship, although they have to actively apply for it.