Child grooming gang found guilty

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

The bit hilighted in Bold is the point isn't it. That there are a large number or gangs targeting vunerable girls. Leicester has a significant amount of asians right (I think the majority now are asian) so it's obvious you will find asian men doing this. What is interesting about Leicester is that the majority of asians from Leicester happen to be from Africa and India, and there is a large representation here from all religions, Sikhs, Muslim and Hindus - I would also bet that Pakistanis make up the smallest subset within that ethnioc group. So again, unless we know they are specifically Pakistani again it sort of blows out the cultural argument out of the water.

If the gang in Rochdale were in an area rife with vunerable Pakistani girls, do not for one minute think they would have left them alone.

TAke out the word asian in your post above and that applies to all people who pimp out girls/run child prostitution rings.

No one, especially me, is disputing that Pakistani men do not do it. Unfortunately evil is not confined to one race or colour, but the reporting, views and opinions of late are that this is a massive problem in the Pakistani muslim community and because the victims were all white, its all ok.

---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:09 ----------



Exactly. They would have found it extremely difficult to target asian girls because of those reasons. That is not saying that it doesn't happen to asian girls either. There are quite a few who end up in prostitution having been exploited as a result of their broken backgrounds.



The myth that has sprung about in the last week? I've never heard previous to this case that British (or non British) Pakistani Muslims culturally think its ok to groom white girls for prostitution? Or to be pimps. If these men had been caught doing this "back home" not one would have made it to trial. They would have been hanged by their communities.

I've heard that myth many times before over the years and don't you need four witnesses to back up your tape claim of you're a girl out there



http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/4479/why-the-deafening-silence-after-rape/

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

So this points to it not being a racist issue surely?

Thank you for making the point.

I think Russ might be concluding because his OH was specifically warned about Pakistani gangs, and not white ones, it was only asian guys that did this -although his post does suggest that they were after asian girls too (otherwise the OH's mum would not have warned her).

Anyway, there is a secondary issue here that there has to be something done to protect young girls (and boys) from this. That in itself is an issue that needs to be sorted out to prevent them falling into the clutches of evil men (and women) like this.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

The myth that has sprung about in the last week? I've never heard previous to this case that British (or non British) Pakistani Muslims culturally think its ok to groom white girls for prostitution? Or to be pimps. If these men had been caught doing this "back home" not one would have made it to trial. They would have been hanged by their communities.

No offence but that's a sheltered life you have led .You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran ,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.It is a common belief amongst far right groups that Indians ,Pakistanis,Africans etc all "enjoy" their children as a matter of course.It's that type of thinking that needs to be addressed ,how that will be achieved especially when those in need of the education are pretty much un educateable is beyond me

---------- Post added at 14:56 ---------- Previous post was at 14:46 ----------

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Thank you for making the point.

I think Russ might be concluding because his OH was specifically warned about Pakistani gangs, and not white ones, it was only asian guys that did this -although his post does suggest that they were after asian girls too (otherwise the OH's mum would not have warned her).

Anyway, there is a secondary issue here that there has to be something done to protect young girls (and boys) from this. That in itself is an issue that needs to be sorted out to prevent them falling into the clutches of evil men (and women) like this.

Maybe the problem is the Asian gangs perception of us and how we treat our young children by allowing them to hang out at kebab shops drinking .Maybe they don't care because they percieve us as not caring .It's all well and good getting all uptight and indignant about gangs of any sort picking up under age girls and boys but if us adults looked after them a bit better then they wouldn't be in that position in the first place

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by martyh

No offence but that's a sheltered life you have led .You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran ,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.It is a common belief amongst far right groups that Indians ,Pakistanis,Africans etc all "enjoy" their children as a matter of course.It's that type of thinking that needs to be addressed ,how that will be achieved especially when those in need of the education are pretty much un educateable is beyond me

Originally Posted by martyh

No offence but that's a sheltered life you have led .

Sorry ? Sheltered Life? On what basis do you make that conclusion?

Originally Posted by martyh

You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.

I've heard a lot of crap to about what is supposedly written in tjhe Quran. Not saying you havent, but when this has been the case for me, I've actually researched it further.

CAn you tell me what you think that statement means?

Islam teaches you to enjoy things that you have acquired legitamately and what is Halaal (permissable). Acquiring anything aquired in an illegal manner is forbidden (Haraam). You cannot enjoy anything you have acquired illegally/immorally - I think the implication here is that these guys thought they owned the girls?

Do you really think any of the guys convicted in this case were devout or even practising muslims? Do you think they were influenced by their religion.

I challenge you to find anywhere in the Quran, you don't even have to interpret it - just cut and paste any verse from an english translation, where you can reach any form of conclusion that it is ok to groom and rape kids.

Originally Posted by martyh

.It is a common belief amongst far right groups that Indians ,Pakistanis,Africans etc all "enjoy" their children as a matter of course.

You know what, I am not talking about right wing groups. I am talking about the general media, and views from people who I would not consider as being right winged that are promoting a view that this is a race issue, and specific to one culture.

One danger in this is that you ignore the victims, you could be building a seanario where people think it only happens in this culture or that one, and by sticking to one which they feel is safe, might not be the best outcome.

I have not, in any of my posts above, said that it doesnt happen in the British PAkistani Muslim culture. What I am saying is that the manner of the reporting in this case, and subsequent views, has been totally different as to if it had been an English WHite gang commiting the crimes.

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:07 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Maybe the problem is the Asian gangs perception of us and how we treat our young children by allowing them to hang out at kebab shops drinking .Maybe they don't care because they percieve us as not caring .It's all well and good getting all uptight and indignant about gangs of any sort picking up under age girls and boys but if us adults looked after them a bit better then they wouldn't be in that position in the first place

Again you could say that about anyone exploiting young children. The way I look at it, evil people pick on the most vunerable in society.

You have hit the nail on the head. We need to do something that stops kids getting in that position - the one in which they are exploitted in the first place.

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:09 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/44...ce-after-rape/

I don't think that the issue of rapists not being convicted, aqs well as the question "when is rape not rape" is exclusive to Pakistan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/ju...igrationpolicy

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Sorry ? Sheltered Life? On what basis do you make that conclusion?

You're the one who said he had never heard of the myths

I've heard a lot of crap to about what is supposedly written in tjhe Quran. Not saying you havent, but when this has been the case for me, I've actually researched it further.

CAn you tell me what you think that statement means?

What statement?

Do you really think any of the guys convicted in this case were devout or even practising muslims? Do you think they were influenced by their religion.

could be,i don't know ,don't forget one of them was a religious teacher

I challenge you to find anywhere in the Quran, you don't even have to interpret it - just cut and paste any verse from an english translation, where you can reach any form of conclusion that it is ok to groom and rape kids

HEY ,i didn't say there was anything in the Quran that ok'd child rape .I said some people interpret it that way

You know what, I am not talking about right wing groups. I am talking about the general media, and views from people who I would not consider as being right winged that are promoting a view that this is a race issue, and specific to one culture.

The general media only print what others say and what will make them money ,it is the far right groups such as EDL and BNP that instigate such views in the first place and you must remember that the BNP is a legitimate political party whose views are widely accwpted by a lot of people so maybe you should be considering their part in this

I have not, in any of my posts above, said that it doesnt happen in the British PAkistani Muslim culture. What I am saying is that the manner of the reporting in this case, and subsequent views, has been totally different as to if it had been an English WHite gang commiting the crimes

and that is because far right groups latched on and the media saw an opportunity to sell some papers based on the views of those far right groups ,views like ,it is ok to rape kids because the quran says we can .

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by martyh

You're the one who said he had never heard of the myths

THis is the first time that I can recall in mainstream media (radio talk shows, 'normal' people expressing their views) that gild grooming and rape is a common problem in this community. I am not referring to myths within the far right.


[QUOTE=martyh;35426462]

What statement?


This one -

Originally Posted by martyh

You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran ,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.

Because one of them was a "religious teacher" does not mean he understood what he was teaching or the religion he was teaching should be labelled as promoting these acts.. There have been religious leaders in ALL religions who have abused their power/position.

We could go around and around spending hours discussiing religion - so I really don't want to go down that route. The point I am trying to make is that there has been a huge slant on the religion and the community, and an emphasis on this being a racist crime, somehow justified by religion and culture. And I do not think that is the case or how it should be reported/portrayed.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I don't think that the issue of rapists not being convicted, aqs well as the question "when is rape not rape" is exclusive to Pakistan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/ju...igrationpolicy

I thought you said it was a myth that there was a problem with rape in Pakistan, the figures are there, one rape every two hours and a gang rape every eight hours, perhaps that's what Marty means by sheltered life.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I thought you said it was a myth that there was a problem with rape in Pakistan, the figures are there, one rape every two hours and a gang rape every eight hours, perhaps that's what Marty means by sheltered life.

I was refering to the myths that rape and grooming of young girls is rife and prevalent amongst british pakistani muslims (I thought this is what we were talking about).

I have never disputed that rape does not happen in the pakistan cultures - I am arguing that this case and associated cviews comes across as its down to their culture that these guys committed the crimes, that there is a racist element involved because only white girls were targetted, and that religion influenced there way of thinking.

You produced a link about rape and its effects in PAkistan, I produced one closer to home.

On the point of only white girls being targetted - it might be that only white girls reported the rape. There could have been pakistani girls raped too, but they might not have come foward. There might have also been other girls raped but they might never have come forward.

[QUOTE=Saaf_laandon_mo;35426463]THis is the first time that I can recall in mainstream media (radio talk shows, 'normal' people expressing their views) that gild grooming and rape is a common problem in this community. I am not referring to myths within the far right.

Originally Posted by martyh

What statement?


This one - Originally Posted by martyh

You wouldn't believe some of the crap i have heard over the years and much of it is supposed to be allowed in the Quran ,the favourite one at the moment to explain why these men did what they did is men may enjoy what your right hands own.

.

Thought it was self evident myself ,but since you ask ,
that and similar is some of the crap being spouted and has been for as long as i can remember about muslim culture ,and like i said if you have never heard similar crap in peoples endeavours to interpret the Quran then you have led a sheltered life , which isn't a bad thing so no offence meant

saaf_laandon_mo am I right in thinking you are a Muslim?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

saaf_laandon_mo am I right in thinking you are a Muslim?

Yes I am Muslim, but not Pakistani. Born in southern Africa to parents from India.

I do have a lot of experience of Islam, the muslim culture, the PAkistani and Indian subcontinent culture (my wife is Pakistani), through a lot of the voluntary work I do and the people and groups I speak to.

I also work and get involved with young Muslims in the UK and have a lot of first hand knowledge and experience of the issues that are faced by them today.

---------- Post added at 16:56 ---------- Previous post was at 16:51 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Thought it was self evident myself ,but since you ask ,
that and similar is some of the crap being spouted and has been for as long as i can remember about muslim culture ,and like i said if you have never heard similar crap in peoples endeavours to interpret the Quran then you have led a sheltered life , which isn't a bad thing so no offence meant

Like I explained in another post - I was referring to the myth speciafially about grooming - I thought that was what we were talking about.

I have heard all the other myths - but I was trying to keep oin topic

Just to clear up something i am convinced race was an issue in this incident and the fact that the men themselves said it was also enforces that and i am completely bewildered as to why all of a sudden them saying race was a part of it is irrelevent seriously if what they said on that is irrelevent what the hell is relevent from them. That said the crime itself is disgusting, unjustifiable and out and out wrong and the emphasis here should be on helping the victims 100%. But we cannot ignore an aspect because it may cause wider problems or because we don't want to hear it we have to face it head on and make damn sure that anyone who MIGHT hold a cultural view on this that it is wrong and not acceptable in the UK.

We as a country have had our heads in the sand for too long on race in the UK and it has allowed groups like the EDL and the BNP to gain support because we do not have a sensible and mature debate on the issues of race relations in the UK. Labour's open door policy allowed too many in without anytime for both sides to integrate properly it allowed in too many who bought with them the cultural views from the country they came from that are completely unaaceptable to all people in the UK. We have to have this discussion and both sides are going to have to accept some unpleasant truths because if we don't we will continue to see the rise of neanderthal's and their twisted ignorant bigotry.

I could relate many eyewitness things i have personally seen in leicester over the last twenty years to give a skewed perception of a community and the reason i do not is because i do not believe it is endemic to that culture and are not representative of all within that community. We can carry on as we are or we can start to address this and defuse the issue i would prefer to tackle it head on now and remove the ammunition of certain groups and maybe get race relations where we would all prefer them because i would rather not be living in a society where it has become two groups and your either with one or against it and that is where we will get too at some point if we do not start to deal with this.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Just to clear up something i am convinced race was an issue in this incident and the fact that the men themselves said it was also enforces that and i am completely bewildered as to why all of a sudden them saying race was a part of it is irrelevent seriously if what they said on that is irrelevent what the hell is relevent from them. That said the crime itself is disgusting, unjustifiable and out and out wrong and the emphasis here should be on helping the victims 100%. But we cannot ignore an aspect because it may cause wider problems or because we don't want to hear it we have to face it head on and make damn sure that anyone who MIGHT hold a cultural view on this that it is wrong and not acceptable in the UK.

We as a country have had our heads in the sand for too long on race in the UK and it has allowed groups like the EDL and the BNP to gain support because we do not have a sensible and mature debate on the issues of race relations in the UK. Labour's open door policy allowed too many in without anytime for both sides to integrate properly it allowed in too many who bought with them the cultural views from the country they came from that are completely unaaceptable to all people in the UK. We have to have this discussion and both sides are going to have to accept some unpleasant truths because if we don't we will continue to see the rise of neanderthal's and their twisted ignorant bigotry.

I could relate many eyewitness things i have personally seen in leicester over the last twenty years to give a skewed perception of a community and the reason i do not is because i do not believe it is endemic to that culture and are not representative of all within that community. We can carry on as we are or we can start to address this and defuse the issue i would prefer to tackle it head on now and remove the ammunition of certain groups and maybe get race relations where we would all prefer them because i would rather not be living in a society where it has become two groups and your either with one or against it and that is where we will get too at some point if we do not start to deal with this.

Some would say we are already there Rizzy .

Good post by the way

[Jimmy-J]

Did anyone see last nights Question Time? I watched in anger as Peter Oborne and an audience member put most of the blame on the victims / parents / BNP, anyone but the paedophile rapists.

Forward to the 11 minute mark to watch.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Just to clear up something i am convinced race was an issue in this incident and the fact that the men themselves said it was also enforces that and i am completely bewildered as to why all of a sudden them saying race was a part of it is irrelevent seriously if what they said on that is irrelevent what the hell is relevent from them. That said the crime itself is disgusting, unjustifiable and out and out wrong and the emphasis here should be on helping the victims 100%. But we cannot ignore an aspect because it may cause wider problems or because we don't want to hear it we have to face it head on and make damn sure that anyone who MIGHT hold a cultural view on this that it is wrong and not acceptable in the UK.

We as a country have had our heads in the sand for too long on race in the UK and it has allowed groups like the EDL and the BNP to gain support because we do not have a sensible and mature debate on the issues of race relations in the UK. Labour's open door policy allowed too many in without anytime for both sides to integrate properly it allowed in too many who bought with them the cultural views from the country they came from that are completely unaaceptable to all people in the UK. We have to have this discussion and both sides are going to have to accept some unpleasant truths because if we don't we will continue to see the rise of neanderthal's and their twisted ignorant bigotry.

I could relate many eyewitness things i have personally seen in leicester over the last twenty years to give a skewed perception of a community and the reason i do not is because i do not believe it is endemic to that culture and are not representative of all within that community. We can carry on as we are or we can start to address this and defuse the issue i would prefer to tackle it head on now and remove the ammunition of certain groups and maybe get race relations where we would all prefer them because i would rather not be living in a society where it has become two groups and your either with one or against it and that is where we will get too at some point if we do not start to deal with this.

Seems to me that by saying it's racial detracts from the crime.It also seems to make an offence that allegedly racial in nature worse than if it is just a run of the mill murder/rape/mugging..It's as if it has a deeper degree of offence because of the racial element.There really shouldn't be any degree of difference.