Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by none

Ditto.

What ISP have you chosen? BE?

I have indeed

BT ADSL broadband availability
You are connected to the Warrington telephone exchange.

ADSL is available in your area
Your exchange is also enabled for ADSL Max services

According to BT Wholesale, your address should be able to support a 4.5Mbps or greater ADSL connection via ADSL Max.

Standard ADSL RAG results:
You can receive 2Mbps ADSL
You can receive 1Mbps ADSL
You can receive 512Kbps ADSL
You can receive 256Kbps ADSL

You are approximately 1.53km from the exchange (straight line distance).

[none]

Originally Posted by Sirius

I have indeed

BT ADSL broadband availability
You are connected to the Warrington telephone exchange.

ADSL is available in your area
Your exchange is also enabled for ADSL Max services

According to BT Wholesale, your address should be able to support a 4.5Mbps or greater ADSL connection via ADSL Max.

Standard ADSL RAG results:
You can receive 2Mbps ADSL
You can receive 1Mbps ADSL
You can receive 512Kbps ADSL
You can receive 256Kbps ADSL

You are approximately 1.53km from the exchange (straight line distance).

Good choice sir, they are my numero uno atm too, just so long as I don't start reading about a BE and Phorm partnership.

Think I can get their upto 24MB service too :O, so wont be missing VM's 'superduper' fiber too much then \o/

[markt50]

Originally Posted by Toto

The system appears to be cookie based. A good cookie tracking system doesn't need IP information, only a unique reference number or some other non personal descriptor.

But I see this as playing the system. Somehow their system has to have a way of getting my browsing data, being able to profile it, and then update a cookie on my machine. What does an IP address do ? , well other than the obvious network stuff it also is a way of identifying a machine. So they are using some form of number coding or clever system to be able to identify a machine without using an IP, the very fact they know what my machine is (and they must know this in order to be able to write back to the cookie) must mean that I am identifiable to them. Obviously the ability to write back to a cookie is nothing new, but when combined with the fact that they have my entire browsing data is very worrying for me at least.

I don't pretend to be clever enough to understand any of this, but I just think that what they are saying doesn't match up. On the one hand this is supposed to be a system that profiles an individuals browsing habits and serves them personalised adverts, yet on the other hand they are saying they have no idea who you are or what your doing, this seems like a complete contradiction to me, and I may be looking at this way to simplistically, but if they can send anything to my machine then they can identify me.

[none]

Well here’s something interesting. Reading the comments here - http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/blog/p,297/#comments

Note comment 7 is a response from someone on the tech team at techteam@phorm.com

The part that interested me was this,
“Re the opt out, if you opt out — or switch the system off, it’s off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm”

So they say that once opted out that no data passes to Phorm. Interesting. Still don’t believe it, but interesting statement nevertheless.

[Florence]

ISPreview has a new member who seems to think posting on the forums supporting this on behalf of his company will settle us down.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/show...73&postcount=5

[Matth]

We need some host files to block OIX-served ads with extreme prejudice, even before this deal either goes through or gets killed.

I intend throwing every possible block ar them, hostname, IP, script, whatever - I know it hurts the sites that depend on ad revenue, but maybe that will pressure them to consider alternative ad companies. Best thing to hear would be Phorm going bust!

[none]

Originally Posted by Florence

ISPreview has a new member who seems to think posting on the forums supporting this on behalf of his company will settle us down.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/show...73&postcount=5

lol, wonder if they'll post here in this thread :O balls of steel needed methinks!

Best thing to hear would be Phorm going bust!

Can I get a hallelujah and a praise the lord \o/\o/\o/\o/

[MovedGoalPosts]

It's interesting though that Phorm and it's ISP partners are starting to feel the pressure judging by these initial responses on forums, and ISPs like VM starting to put "information" on their sites.

I again though make it clear. 'm not interested in the "spin" reassurance responses that may emerge about this. I don't want it anywhere near my browsing. What I do want to receive is a categoric assurance from Virgin Media that, having exercised my right not to opt in, let alone opt out, there will be no passing of any of my browsing habits, in any form, to spyware companies.

[markt50]

Originally Posted by none

Well here’s something interesting. Reading the comments here - http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/blog/p,297/#comments

Note comment 7 is a response from someone on the tech team at techteam@phorm.com

The part that interested me was this,
“Re the opt out, if you opt out — or switch the system off, it’s off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm”

So they say that once opted out that no data passes to Phorm. Interesting. Still don’t believe it, but interesting statement nevertheless.

Funnily enough the same person responded to my questions, on of all places, a website for a labour councillor called Bob Piper

Link: http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

My question was:

"Would you care to explain how the 'Opt Out' works ? I suspect that by opt out what is really meant is that a machine will not be targeted with adverts. Can you really explain exactly how the opt out process works in a technical manner and not by just referencing the website you can go to to click 'opt out' as this explains nothing. Most importantly, if someone has decided to opt out, will any data what so ever be sent from the ISP network across to the Phorm network for any form of processing ?"

To which Techteam answered:

"When you opt out -- or switch the system off, it's off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be adverts from the OIX system and they will not be relevant to your browsing."

The bit about the Phorm server being located in the ISP network is interesting, it also raises the question of whether data still gets processed if you opt out. They may still be processing it from the Phorm servers in the ISP's network, just not passing this from the ISP network to the Phorm network. I'm just concerned they maybe playing with words here.

I for one would like to see them state that if you opt out, then it is off 100%. None of your data whatsoever is touched, processed, sniffed, manipulated, profiled by Phorm whether internal or external to your ISP. I am also concered that we will still only have their word on how things work, they wouldn't be the first company to bend the truth when it comes to things like this. So basically even if what they say regarding this turns out to be true, I'm still not happy with it and will still be going to another ISP that has nothing to do with Phorm.

[none]

Originally Posted by markt50

I for one would like to see them state that if you opt out, then it is off 100%. None of your data whatsoever is touched, processed, sniffed, manipulated, profiled by Phorm whether internal or external to your ISP. I am also concered that we will still only have their word on how things work, they wouldn't be the first company to bend the truth when it comes to things like this. So basically even if what they say regarding this turns out to be true, I'm still not happy with it and will still be going to another ISP that has nothing to do with Phorm.

I couldn't have said it any better

The mere fact that VM are very seriously toying and most likely going to rollout this grotesque scheme is enough for me to lose what little faith I had in them to begin with.

The way I feel right now is this, even if VM where to call this whole sorry thing off, I'm almost certain I'll switch ISP's. Just how can you ever trust a company that is so ready to lay in bed with a bunch of snakes. Trust is hard to earn and VM are pouring it away in buckets.

[popper]

dont forget to post your complaints and concerns regarding any part of your data property being shared by your ISP to this 3rd party Phorm company to the ICO
http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints/data_protection.aspx
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...lain_final.pdf

perhaps the IC will initiate a formal investigation if and when they receave your comments and learn of your concerns etc.

[Traduk]

Ravenheart,

Thanks for posting. The information on the site you mentioned led to some interesting insights. The patent application appears to give a perspective far beyond what has been discussed on this forum and is potentially, if implemented, far more intrusive than anybody imagined.

Within the long format patent application the methodology appears to search as has been previously found out by search requests, url's visited and website content for keywords to profile for advertising purposes. Customers are allocated an anonymous number and whether they are served adverts is controlled by some proactive act they must take to stop them (opt-out). The nasty bit which will drive people absolutely mad is within a couple of paragraphs way down in the document.

They use the example of a BMW and state that whilst a user is changing from url to url ie. surfing that a car orientated advert can be placed during the transition. That is interfering with the surfing of a customer and injecting an advert between page changes which IMO has an irritation lifetime of seconds. In another paragraph they state that an ISP can benefit by injecting adverts for their own ISP to hopefully avoid churn if a customer has been spied upon looking at other ISP's sites.

I had wondered how either Phorm or an ISP could make much money out of this if they just relied on random surfing marrying up with an OIX.net signed website. It has been discussed and is fairly obvious that they could not super-impose ads on others sites so there was no logical way for making money. However if as the architecture will allow, Thorm becomes the mirror profiler then the injection of an advert to keep us amused whilst we wait for the next page of our choice to load isn't going to hurt anybody and may enhance our experience. Whether there is an actual injection or a re-route before routing via an OIX site advert which will probably have to be clicked on it makes sense because adverts that force fed will be seen by millions per day and without doubt several times and that would be worth a fortune to advertisers but probably thousands and thousands of lost customers to the ISP's.

[MovedGoalPosts]

The last thing I want is to have to wait for an ad page to display between refreshes of pages that I'm searching for. Virgin Media's super dooper zoom along 20meg broadband is painfully slow enough at times, without it having to find and load even more junk before I get to where I want.

[mogodon]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...ternet.privacy

If you though Phorm was bad already don't read this quote:

"But there was also one unexplored possibility about the technology, the ex-employee noted: "The [Phorm] platform clearly has some edge-of-network technologies involved. It would be entirely feasible for an ISP to allow customers to opt out - and subsequently throttle their service."

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by markt50

But I see this as playing the system. Somehow their system has to have a way of getting my browsing data, being able to profile it, and then update a cookie on my machine. What does an IP address do ? , well other than the obvious network stuff it also is a way of identifying a machine. So they are using some form of number coding or clever system to be able to identify a machine without using an IP, the very fact they know what my machine is (and they must know this in order to be able to write back to the cookie) must mean that I am identifiable to them. Obviously the ability to write back to a cookie is nothing new, but when combined with the fact that they have my entire browsing data is very worrying for me at least.

Interesting point. Hmm we'll put a cookie on your machine and we will call the cookie 192168001100 perhaps if there is another user on that machine we will call the cookie 1921680011001 and so on. Or perhaps we will be clever and call teh cookie 1001100861291 there see can't see how that could possibly be related to you now!