Hamas Israel War

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Btw, Gaza was administered at the time by Egypt, the terrorist group.

You mean the Muslim Brotherhood

The Fatah terrorist group then got busy against Israel and in 1967,the Arab neighbours had another go at Israel. Fata later transformed into a political party. In Gaza, Hamas was formed as a militant, armed group.

fatah and their corruption is the direct reason hamas got into Gaza, it basically died with Arafat and he had the best deal his people could have got and couldn't bring himself to grasp it

The suicide bombing shows that extreme Islamist culture stretches to such insane acts. That's what we're seeing today because the Hamas fighters know they'll die. What's worse, they know their families will suffer. The culture difference is evident.

Ever considered that such insane acts emanate from a desperate and hopeless situation and their families actually benefit financially from their deaths btw

Originally Posted by Pierre

Been announced has it? I assume you have a link, I’ll wait.

Unless you’re going to refer to something that was incorrectly reported years ago. WP were used in 2009 to produce instant smoke and noxious fumes to flush out personnel and combatants. They are not a primary incendiary device.

Considering it took Israel 4 years to admit what they did I fear you're going to have a long wait

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You mean the Muslim Brotherhood



fatah and their corruption is the direct reason hamas got into Gaza, it basically died with Arafat and he had the best deal his people could have got and couldn't bring himself to grasp it


Ever considered that such insane acts emanate from a desperate and hopeless situation and their families actually benefit financially from their deaths btw


Considering it took Israel 4 years to admit what they did I fear you're going to have a long wait

What? How so? And certainly not if the families are among the dead.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Considering it took Israel 4 years to admit what they did I fear you're going to have a long wait

You’re talking gibberish now? Not sure how any of that relates to my post. Sleep it off and reply tomorrow.

[Jaymoss]

Another serious news thread spoilt by the same faces bickering

Will just go read a newspaper instead

I wonder if Jeremy Corbyn has phoned his friends in Hamas and asked them if they’d kindly stop raping, kidnapping and murdering people.

Friends in Hamas. Specifically. These people.

To think that Corbyn and his fellow travellers were (albeit briefly) allowed to run one of our two major political parties is all the more chilling. Whatever you think about Boris Johnson and his legacy, what would the alternative have been, had that utter shower been in charge of our government today? To even imagine the equivocation coming out of Downing Street is awful.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67047034

More than 250 bodies have reportedly been recovered from the festival site, according to rescue agency Zaka.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

I wonder if Jeremy Corbyn has phoned his friends in Hamas and asked them if they’d kindly stop raping, kidnapping and murdering people.

Friends in Hamas. Specifically. These people.

To think that Corbyn and his fellow travellers were (albeit briefly) allowed to run one of our two major political parties is all the more chilling. Whatever you think about Boris Johnson and his legacy, what would the alternative have been, had that utter shower been in charge of our government today? To even imagine the equivocation coming out of Downing Street is awful.

You don't really need to imagine he's actually said this on Twitter:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Corbyn on X

The unfolding events in Israel and Palestine are deeply alarming.

We need an immediate ceasefire and urgent de-escalation.

And we need a route out of this tragic cycle of violence: ending the occupation is the only means of achieving a just and lasting peace.

Horrific.

Originally Posted by jfman

You don't really need to imagine he's actually said this on Twitter:



Horrific.

Corbyn is horrific, yes. There’s an entire essay to be written on exactly what he means by ‘occupation’ - there are plenty on the British far left who use that word to describe Israel’s very existence, on the basis that the Israeli state is illegitimate and therefore all ‘Israelis’ are occupiers. Assuming he doesn’t think this way would be being …. generous.

Telling also that his preference is for equivocation like ‘immediate cease fire’ rather than specifically calling on his friends in Hamas to stop the very specifically war-crimey things they’re doing, release civilian hostages and return to Gaza.

An immediate cease fire does rather imply that Hamas gets to continue to occupy those Israeli settlements it has captured and to hold on to the people it has kidnapped. I wonder what reasons he might offer the Israeli government for not immediately retaking its sovereign territory by force and attempting to rescue its citizens.

As a contrast, I offer Keir Starmer’s statement, which says in part that “Labour stands firmly in support of Israel's right to defend itself, rescue hostages and protect its citizens … The indiscriminate attacks from Hamas are unjustifiable and have set back the cause of peace." He has also deliberately used the word ‘terrorism’ in relation to Hamas’ actions, a designation that not everyone on the British left would be willing to admit.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Corbyn is horrific, yes. There’s an entire essay to be written on exactly what he means by ‘occupation’ - there are plenty on the British far left who use that word to describe Israel’s very existence, on the basis that the Israeli state is illegitimate and therefore all ‘Israelis’ are occupiers. Assuming he doesn’t think this way would be being …. generous.

Telling also that his preference is for equivocation like ‘immediate cease fire’ rather than specifically calling on his friends in Hamas to stop the very specifically war-crimey things they’re doing, release civilian hostages and return to Gaza.

An immediate cease fire does rather imply that Hamas gets to continue to occupy those Israeli settlements it has captured and to hold on to the people it has kidnapped. I wonder what reasons he might offer the Israeli government for not immediately retaking its sovereign territory by force and attempting to rescue its citizens.

Sounds like you are grasping at straws to insert your own fanciful prejudice to give meaning to Corbyn’s words that isn’t actually there.

Considering everyone predicts the current trajectory to be more war and more bloodshed he’s clearly right that the status quo is not sustainable.

Pierre and yourself have quite eloquently outlined the alternative - essentially a genocide.

Originally Posted by jfman

Sounds like you are grasping at straws to insert your own fanciful prejudice to give meaning to Corbyn’s words that isn’t actually there.

Considering everyone predicts the current trajectory to be more war and more bloodshed he’s clearly right that the status quo is not sustainable.

Pierre and yourself have quite eloquently outlined the alternative - essentially a genocide.

I don’t think my view of Corbyn is at all fanciful when his comments are taken in the round, especially in the context of who he has chosen to be seen with, and who he has called his friends over many years. But in the grand scheme of things that’s a sideshow and I have no intention of going on about it for the next 10 pages.

What’s more concerning is that when you look at the conflict, all the way back to its 19th century roots, I think it becomes clear that if there is ever a permanent ‘solution’ it will have been wrought by one side pretty much eliminating the other. If there isn’t a solution then we will continue with a version of the status quo. A state and a non-state, uneasy neighbours occasionally flaring up into murderous cycles of bloodletting.

The so-called ‘two-state solution’ died some time ago but nobody is yet willing to stand up and say so.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

What? How so? And certainly not if the families are among the dead.

Because Hamas pays the families of suicide bombers

Originally Posted by Pierre

You’re talking gibberish now? Not sure how any of that relates to my post. Sleep it off and reply tomorrow.

You wanted proof, the last time Israel committed that particular war crime it took them 4 years to admit it, hence you'll have a long wait

[ianch99]

Hamas have given us a vivid reminder of the evils of the current Islamist extremes. They are content to die for their faith and here is the result. Saying that, this is a significant failure for the Israeli security services. They are supposed to have Gaza locked down by sea and land but we see 1000's of missiles being smuggled in, assembled and fired into Israel.

What is interesting are the "normal" reactions from both sides where they condemn the other side yet dance around the reasons and underpinnings of these events. Corbyn is a classic example of this. He will not condemn the attacks in clear language yet will pivot back to the behaviour of Israel.

As you can see on this forum, no sensible debate can be had without recognising the faults on both sides. Gaza is the worlds largest prison camp. It has minimal healthcare, water & electricity rationed by Israel and 40% unemployment. Generations have been born in this camp with literally no hope. No wonder the likes of Hamas seduce them. In a way, Israel helped to form Hamas. By refusing to take seriously the PLO and its attempts to pursue a two state solution, it effectedly spawned Hamas and led us here today.

Both sides are signed up a predominantly Old Testament moral code: "an eye for an eye" with the inevitable "sow and ye shall reap". Like some here are doing, everyone in Gaza are treated as terrorists:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67045078

Palestinian health officials say more than 400 people have been killed in retaliatory Israeli air strikes on Gaza.

Most areas are without electricity as Israel has stopped supplying Gaza with power. Gaza's own supplier can only provide 20% of the electricity needed.

Food and water supplies have also been cut.

Driving through the Gaza city centre on Sunday morning, I saw rubble blocking roads. Shops were closed, except for a few bakeries where long queues had formed.

The escalation has made Gaza's dreadful humanitarian situation even worse.

Its under-equipped hospitals - which at the best of times struggle to provide healthcare to a population of more than two million people - have launched desperate appeals for blood donors.

Mahmoud Shalabi, Gaza director of the charity Medical Aid for Palestinians, described the city's main hospital as a "slaughterhouse".

Many people were lying on the ground in the emergency department, he said. "There were many dead bodies in the morgue and many medical staff were unable to cope with the huge influx of casualties they were receiving," Mr Shalabi added.

It is sad that world will, quite correctly, focus on the Israelis killed by Hamas, however the innocents killed by the retaliatory IDF bombs will be lost to history.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Hamas have given us a vivid reminder of the evils of the current Islamist extremes. They are content to die for their faith and here is the result. Saying that, this is a significant failure for the Israeli security services. They are supposed to have Gaza locked down by sea and land but we see 1000's of missiles being smuggled in, assembled and fired into Israel.

What is interesting are the "normal" reactions from both sides where they condemn the other side yet dance around the reasons and underpinnings of these events. Corbyn is a classic example of this. He will not condemn the attacks in clear language yet will pivot back to the behaviour of Israel.

As you can see on this forum, no sensible debate can be had without recognising the faults on both sides. Gaza is the worlds largest prison camp. It has minimal healthcare, water & electricity rationed by Israel and 40% unemployment. Generations have been born in this camp with literally no hope. No wonder the likes of Hamas seduce them. In a way, Israel helped to form Hamas. By refusing to take seriously the PLO and its attempts to pursue a two state solution, it effectedly spawned Hamas and led us here today.

Both sides are signed up a predominantly Old Testament moral code: "an eye for an eye" with the inevitable "sow and ye shall reap". Like some here are doing, everyone in Gaza are treated as terrorists:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67045078



It is sad that world will, quite correctly, focus on the Israelis killed by Hamas, however the innocents killed by the retaliatory IDF bombs will be lost to history.

Irony overload.

[nomadking]

Gaza is reliant on Israel because of it's geographical location and it seems to be overcrowded. Not a lot of scope to build an economy, unless Egypt is going to hand over some territory.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

Irony overload.

Explain

---------- Post added at 10:13 ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

Gaza is reliant on Israel because of it's geographical location and it seems to be overcrowded. Not a lot of scope to build an economy, unless Egypt is going to hand over some territory.

Gaza is effectively part of Israel. Looking through the lens of Ultra-Zionism, I guess it makes sense to want the to ship some of the Palestinians to Egypt. However, Egypt is not Palestine.

Ultra-Zionism is an often religiously motivated movement to extend the State of Israel to subsume the Palestinian territories, aligning with a perceived goal of reclaiming the "Promised Land" of the Old Testament.

The Palestinian Authority seeks the West Bank as the heartland of a future independent state and so the current Likud administration, the most hard-line for years, is actively countering this:

Netanyahu government makes West Bank settlement expansion its priority

etanyahu’s new government – the most religious and hardline in Israel’s history – is made up of ultra-Orthodox parties, a far-right ultranationalist religious faction affiliated with the West Bank settler movement, and his Likud party. It is to be sworn in on Thursday.

Several of Netanyahu’s key allies, including most of the Religious Zionism party, are ultranationalist West Bank settlers.

In the coalition agreement between Likud and Religious Zionism, Netanyahu pledges to legalise wildcat settlement outposts considered illegal even by the Israeli government. He also promises to annex the West Bank “while choosing the timing and considering the national and international interests of the state of Israel”.

Such a move would alienate much of the world, and give new fuel to critics who compare Israeli policies in the West Bank to apartheid South Africa.