Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[popper]

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

I think it is important that have a simple position statement which we can socialise amongst the masses of ordinary, non-technical web users.

I have therefore tried to summarise the Phorm issues and questions for the intelligent layman, journalist and politician at http://www.whyphormisbad.org/

Please let me know via email or this forum whether you think this is a good idea, and if so let me have any comments or suggestions for improvements.

if your intent is to inform and educate these people, its probably good to highlight the Deep packet inspection,at the top,and include this from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_packet_inspection

"
Deep packet inspection (and filtering) enables advanced security functions as well as internet data mining, eavesdropping, censorship, etc.

Advocates of net neutrality fear that DPI technology will be used to privatize the Internet."

---------- Post added at 23:20 ---------- Previous post was at 23:17 ----------

it might even be good to include
"
Lawful intercept
Service providers are required by various governments around the world and their agencies to allow lawful intercept capabilities.

This had been previously met by creating a traffic access point (TAP) using an intercepting proxy server that connects to the government's surveillance equipment.

Now that this functionality can be included in the DPI, DPI products that are "CALEA-compliant" can be used as a TAP to collect a user's datastream.[4] "

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

I could always do it on another url if you think that would be helpful. if you'd like to suggest an alternative to whyphormisbad, please do.

Portly_Giraffe - you have a PM

[mark777]

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

I think it is important that have a simple position statement which we can socialise amongst the masses of ordinary, non-technical web users.

I agree 100%. But it needs to say "Advertising people want to look at all the web pages you visit so they know what you are interested in", or words to that effect. And then give a bit more info.

Portly, you have a great idea, but the first line can't go into deep packet inspection. They are not techies and will turn off.

I've asked before on this forum if there was a simple page that describes what's going on, but there isn't really. BadPhorm gives the lowdown, but for techies.

If we could come, together on this forum, to a simple, true and accurate description of what's going on, Portly, would you be prepared to host it?

It could be linked to in e-mails etc., but needs to be nice and simple and explain to people just what they are giving up for no real benefit.

You really have done a good job!

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Alex @ Phorm

Hi. It's Alex @ Phorm

The ICO has posted its latest statement on Phorm, which includes the following:

"They assure us that their system does not allow the retention of individual profiles of sites visited and adverts presented, and that they hold no personally identifiable information on web users. Indeed, Phorm assert that their system has been designed specifically to allow the appropriate targeting of adverts whilst rigorously protecting the privacy of web users."

The full statement is here: http://www.ico.gov.uk/about_us/news_..._releases.aspx

We will see what ICO say when I make a complaint to the Parliamentary Ombudsman against them for failing to enforce the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations 2003 (A European Directive).

Alexander Hanff

[Portly_Giraffe]

Originally Posted by mark777

If we could come, together on this forum, to a simple, true and accurate description of what's going on, Portly, would you be prepared to host it?

It could be linked to in e-mails etc., but needs to be nice and simple and explain to people just what they are giving up for no real benefit.

Yes, certainly, I'd be prepared to host it.

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions so far. I'll incorporate them as the weekend progresses and hopefully together we can build a simple and powerful message.

Anyone else want to chip in on calling the site QuestionsforPhorm?

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

We will see what ICO say when I make a complaint to the Parliamentary Ombudsman against them for failing to enforce the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations 2003 (A European Directive).

Alexander Hanff

Go get 'em Tiger! And nice paper, by the way - I've just read it at http://www.paladine.org.uk/phorm_paper.pdf

[AlexanderHanff]

I slept a bit longer than I expected to, will be doing some more work on it once I have eaten.

Alexander Hanff

[Florence]

Originally Posted by Alex @ Phorm

Hi. It's Alex @ Phorm

The ICO has posted its latest statement on Phorm, which includes the following:

"They assure us that their system does not allow the retention of individual profiles of sites visited and adverts presented, and that they hold no personally identifiable information on web users. Indeed, Phorm assert that their system has been designed specifically to allow the appropriate targeting of adverts whilst rigorously protecting the privacy of web users."

The full statement is here: http://www.ico.gov.uk/about_us/news_..._releases.aspx

I dislike the way this is handled for a few reasons..
1 The ICO shouldn't be just accepting what you say to them as how it works they should be deep pocket sniffing at what it can do once you are let lsoe with it.

2 Government not coming out suporting the public fears on this product smells to me... When can we find out which companies have paid into the governments fighting funds?


3 Time to use our democratic right at the polls and vote in people who do care about our privacy not willing to sell us down the river to those with dirty hands from the spyware industry using dubious methods.

[mark777]

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

Anyone else want to chip in on calling the site QuestionsforPhorm?

I would certainly contribute if it kept to a simple, true, clear message for Mr Average WWW user. Anyone know how we go about this?

[3x2]

4 April 2008
Phorm advertising – ICO statement

A spokesperson for the Information Commissioner’s Office said:
“The ICO has received a number of queries concerning the recent announcement by Phorm that 3 major UK Internet Service Providers have agreed to allow them to use technology, developed by Phorm, to present adverts to their customers based on the nature of the websites they visit.
“Understandably, this has provoked considerable public concern. We have had detailed discussions with Phorm. They assure us that their system does not allow the retention of individual profiles of sites visited and adverts presented, and that they hold no personally identifiable information on web users. Indeed, Phorm assert that their system has been designed specifically to allow the appropriate targeting of adverts whilst rigorously protecting the privacy of web users. They clearly recognise the need to address the concerns raised by a number of individuals and organisations including the Open Rights Group. We welcome the efforts they are making to engage with sceptical technical experts and believe that it is only by allowing their technology to be subject to detailed scrutiny by independent technical experts that they will be able to prove their assertions regarding privacy. The ICO strongly supports the use of technology in ways which enhance rather than intrude upon privacy, and plans to produce a report on “Privacy by Design” later this year.
“We understand that the technology is not yet in use and that BT intends to run a trial involving around 10,000 broadband users later this month. We have spoken to BT about this trial and they have made clear that unless customers positively opt in to the trial their web browsing will not be monitored in order to deliver adverts. BT has also stated that the system does not store personally identifiable information, URLs, IP addresses or retain browsing histories and that search information is deleted almost immediately, and is not retrievable.
“We will continue to maintain close contact with Phorm and BT throughout the trial. Clearly the trial should reveal whether this is a service that web users want, whether it is privacy friendly and that users are comfortable with the privacy safeguards put in place by Phorm.”


I've been to the dentist today so maybe I missed something (or arrived back on a different planet, my body full of anaesthetic) - since when was it the function of the ICO to listen to "they said", "they assert" and "they assure"?

How about "our customers want a choice" you morons.

I must remember that one should I end up in court - take the Judge and Jury out for dinner to explain my case to them. "We find you not guilty due to a lovely dinner and you having picked up the bar tab - oh and insufficient evidence or something."

OED 2008 : BTPhorm defence

Welcome to Britain - SSL to another country really is your very best friend (until it becomes illegal)

[theciscokid]

I'm afraid I'm rather more cyncial about Phorm than you, ciscokid. I don't think they're ignorant to our concerns; I believe they know exactly why we're worried, and they're utterly indifferent. As far as they're concerned we're just units to be utilized in the generation of profit. The only thing that will make them care is if the "units" look like they're going to "malfunction" and cause a drop in revenue (i.e. mass opt-out).


A mass opt-out eh? That sounds like a great plan. I just think that when it comes to it peeps will not be willing. Sadly, most people are just sheep with this kinda stuff. Although thats not the feeling I get from this place

[roadrunner69]

Great idea Portly_Giraffe but i have to agree with Mark777, while most of the people contributing here are tech aware and understand the technichal aspects of DPI, its my mum and the girl on the checkout at tesco who need to be made aware of the massive threat to their privacy in simple terms. If you mention Deep Packet Inspection most peoples eyes glaze over and interest is lost. It needs to be kept simple.

[lucevans]

Originally Posted by 3x2

[I]Welcome to Britain - SSL to another country really is your very best friend (until it becomes illegal)

How about an IronKey? You get 12 months encrypted VPN subscription to a dedicated TOR node as well as a really nice memory stick (that self-destructs, apparently, if you get the password wrong 10 times in a row!)

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by CaptJamieHunter:
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

Do you think Phorm would have any problem selling a system based on their patent to, say, the Chinese government?
Of course, they'll have promised to only use it to target advertising...

I'm firmly with Sir Tim: "It's mine - you can't have it."
What grounds have *you* to believe that they should?

[Paddy1]

Been thinking about this in light of the technical paper in a drunken haze

What would happen if we all altered our webwise cookie to have a uid of say 0 and set the cookie to be read only so the web browser couldn't overwrite it?