Brexit (Old)

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

And of course, you are not at all opinionated and equally, you are always right.

Except that leave means leave. Nothing you can say will change that although no doubt you and others on here will continue to argue that black is white.

“Leave means leave” is one of the most pointless and useless contributions Theresa May brought into the discussion.

It once again ignores the broad range of outcomes that all satisfy the definition of leave. All the way from Brexit in name only to crash out on WTO terms.

You have your vision of what you want leave to look like. However in conveying it to the forum it’s impossible to claim it represents the opinion of 17.4 million people. Which is exactly what you claimed it did - then denied it!

Originally Posted by denphone

Yes we all know leave means leave.... but don't think its going to limit the right for one to voice a opinion that might be disagreeable to some on here because it won't as l myself accepted the result but that does not mean l or anybody else will keep quiet on a good many issues involving Brexit because we won't and if some don't like it well that is tough luck for them.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

You have your vision of what you want leave to look like. However in conveying it to the forum it’s impossible to claim it represents the opinion of 17.4 million people. Which is exactly what you claimed it did - then denied it!

I think you successfully persuaded Old Boy to change his mind.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Mick

And 17.4 Million beat that Yes count by a small margin.

So - Yes it is biggest mandate issued by a Democratic process!!!

You are still wrong I am afraid. The definition of a democratic mandate is not the absolute number that voted but rather the percentage of the available electorate that voted for the motion. The UK has a larger population than in 1975 so the electorate is larger in numeric terms.

By your simplistic definition, the USA is "more" democratic than us because more people voted a particular way in the election.

Your approach to this issue, like others, mirrors the Leave campaign and all that led up to it. Take a fact and re-spin it into an alternative "fact" and then shout it from the rooftops, endlessly, as the "truth" until enough people start thinking it really is the truth.

Originally Posted by Mick

The UK did not get a choice on joining what the EU came to exist as today, we can thank John Major for that, for signing the Maastricht Treaty and basically giving the EU more powers over their laws than our British laws.

Again, incorrect. In 1975, we were told about the increased political union:

UK Voters knew the 1975 Referendum was about both an ‘economic & political union’ with the rest of Europe

It is clear that the majority of people voting in the 1975 referendum knew the UK would benefit from being in the EEC, and that the EEC was both a ‘political & economic’ union of member states.

In 1967 the then Prime Minister Harold Wilson said to the House of Commons:

“But whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government’s purpose derives, above all, from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can and indeed must — play our full part in it.” Prime Minister Harold Wilson, 2 May 1967. Source: Hansard

In 1972 the then Prime Minster Edward Heath said:

“The community which we are joining is far more than a common market. It is a community in the true sense of that term. It is concerned not only with the establishment of free trade, economic and monetary union and other major economic issues, important though these are — but also as the Paris Summit Meeting has demonstrated, with social issues which affect us all — environmental questions, working conditions in industry, consumer protection, aid to development areas and vocational training.” Source: Illustrated London News. Prime Minister Edward Heath, December 1972

Originally Posted by Mick

Talking of mallets - Do I need to start swinging my ban mallet/hammer ???

On what grounds?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Mick

And 17.4 Million beat that Yes count by a small margin.

So - Yes it is biggest mandate issued by a Democratic process!!!

Couple of issues which totally negates your point above, totally:-

• Six Million more people were eligible to vote in 2016 than in 1975.
  
• The EU in 2016, as it is known as, vastly different to what it was 41 years earlier. People were not voting for the same things because they were not the same!!!
  
• 37% is an erroneous figure.
  
• 52% beats 48%
  
  Approx, 13 Million people who were eligible to vote in 2016 EU Referendum, but did not because they did not care either way or just could not be arsed to, completely blows the crap out of that 37% figure rubbish.

The UK did not get a choice on joining what the EU came to exist as today, we can thank John Major for that, for signing the Maastricht Treaty and basically giving the EU more powers over their laws than our British laws.

As with the EU gaining more powers since then, came the total corruption from within the EU.

The British people made the correct choice to leave such a corrupted establishment but they had to wait nearly 24 years to get a chance to say no, we do not want to be in this corrupted club, which is what it is!

---------- Post added at 02:35 ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 ----------



Only you have not corrected anything... Just insulted in a pathetic, patronising way. Talking of mallets - Do I need to start swinging my ban mallet/hammer ???

Now, where were we...

You have not asked all 17.4 Million people why they voted to leave, so your reasoning behind why they did, as displayed in the quote above, is Remainer driven illogical and insulting nonsense.

Perhaps I can vouch why I voted to leave the EU and still would (And I don't doubt for one second, other Brexiteers are with me on this), because I do actually want to leave the EU!

I was not misguided, I did not follow any misinformation.

I do have a pair of eyes and I can see for myself just how corrupt the EU is.

It's not xenophobic, it wasn't stupid, it was not ideological hatred, although I do actually legitimately hate the EU, it's not ideologically driven hate, I just cannot stand being in a corrupted con job club, which is exactly what the EU is.

We pay vast sums, in which they take a cut and then pass back to us, they are not funding us, when it's our money they're passing about and I am sick of these funding claims being made by some of you Remainers. The EU does not fund shit in the UK, we are a NET Contributor. We hand the cash to them, they hand some of it back and tell us what to spend it on.

---------- Post added at 02:55 ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 ----------



Missed this earlier - Absolute rubbish, none of those require to be in a union to gain such benefit.

Cheap holidays, don't need them, I get them going to other places in the world, at a reasonable discount - clue, the world is a much bigger place than any other country in the EU.

Mick, you really don't need to be so condescending or patronizing. I'm quite aware how big the world is, i travel a lot of it for work. I'm merely listing some of the things the EU has given, and whilst you're correct that you don't need to be in a union to achieve them, being in a union make it a damn site easier to achieve.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

“Leave means leave” is one of the most pointless and useless contributions Theresa May brought into the discussion.

It once again ignores the broad range of outcomes that all satisfy the definition of leave. All the way from Brexit in name only to crash out on WTO terms.

You have your vision of what you want leave to look like. However in conveying it to the forum it’s impossible to claim it represents the opinion of 17.4 million people. Which is exactly what you claimed it did - then denied it!

You don't like the term 'leave means leave' because it is so straight forward, simple and easy to comprehend.

We are not going to be cowed by remainers who deliberately try to complicate matters, which I have to say they have done with great success. 'Leave means leave' effectively leads to the disintegration of these remainer arguments.

The Norway solution does not mean leave. The EFTA solution does not mean leave. Another referendum would at the very minimum delay leave, as would a General Election. Corbyn's solution which would require us to remain in the Customs Union does not mean leave.

We were clearly told that if we left the EU, we would be able to forge our own trade deals. Only a clean break would achieve this.

In the end it boils down to a clean break with trade deals being negotiated with other countries including the EU or a withdrawal agreement which acts as a bridge between where we are now and where we want to be (that is, with trade deals including the EU). Those are the only real leave solutions. All the others you talk about are half-baked neither in nor out arrangements or barefaced cheek attempts to overturn the democratic result.

We see right through it and in the end, it won't work. We are going to leave, end of.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You don't like the term 'leave means leave' because it is so straight forward, simple and easy to comprehend.

We are not going to be cowed by remainers who deliberately try to complicate matters, which I have to say they have done with great success. 'Leave means leave' effectively leads to the disintegration of these remainer arguments.

The Norway solution does not mean leave. The EFTA solution does not mean leave. Another referendum would at the very minimum delay leave, as would a General Election. Corbyn's solution which would require us to remain in the Customs Union does not mean leave.

We were clearly told that if we left the EU, we would be able to forge our own trade deals. Only a clean break would achieve this.

In the end it boils down to a clean break with trade deals being negotiated with other countries including the EU or a withdrawal agreement which acts as a bridge between where we are now and where we want to be (that is, with trade deals including the EU). Those are the only real leave solutions. All the others you talk about are half-baked neither in nor out arrangements or barefaced cheek attempts to overturn the democratic result.

We see right through it and in the end, it won't work. We are going to leave, end of.

Not in the way you believe.... that I'm willing to bet.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

On what grounds?

Don't tempt providence! He could impose sanctions because you are way off topic. This debate is about Brexit. You are advocating that we stay in. That's not Brexit.

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Not in the way you believe.... that I'm willing to bet.

We'll see about that! A deal which gives us a legal means of getting out of the backstop will ultimately be agreed by the EU and finally, finally, Parliament will vote it through, because the majority in Parliament does not want a 'no-deal' Brexit. However, those are the only two options, so don't put any money on that bet.

[jonbxx]

Woo, completed my export training Yesterday as I sometimes need to ship things back to our regional warehouse elsewhere in the EU. Previously, I needed to complete the shipping information for our courier which consisted of;

• Delivery address
• Size of package
• Hazardous/Non-hazardous goods declaration

Plus I needed to notify our trade compliance team for Intrastat declaration though the UK rarely goes over the £250,000 limit.

I now have a 'no deal' shipping checklist;

❑Title: Commercial/Customs Invoice
❑Language required by importing country
❑Seller/Shipper’s name, address, ship-from country
❑Purchaser/Importer of Record name & address
❑Intermediate consignees (ideally forwarder location)
❑Ultimate consignee & Delivery address
❑Clearing agent’s name & phone #
❑Contact name & phone #
❑Date of invoice
❑Invoice number
❑PO or reference number
For each item on the invoice:
❑Unit Quantity, Value & Currency
❑Part Number & Description of items
❑HS code of items
❑Weight of items (gross &/or net may be required)
❑Country of origin (manufacturing country)
❑Applicable preferential origin status of goods
❑Use of trademark/licensing requirements
❑INCO term + place + port + address
❑Payment term (i.e. 30 days net or LC)
❑Freight cost
❑Subtotal & currency
❑Total cost including freight
❑Any preferential origin item status & shipment declaration requirements
❑Special marks (i.e. edible, temporary/permanent import, import license number, unique identifier/serial #)
❑Applicable export controls numbers/requirements
❑Mode of transport: air/sea/road (optional)
❑Port of entry into importing country (optional)
❑Bank details of exporter (optional)
❑Packing details (dimensions, capacity, weight, type of packaging) or refer to separate packing list
❑Signed with name, title and position of signatory

Marvelous!

-------------------
Just to add as I have been looking through the list, there are dual use technologies too for extra fun!

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Mick, you really don't need to be so condescending or patronizing. I'm quite aware how big the world is, i travel a lot of it for work. I'm merely listing some of the things the EU has given, and whilst you're correct that you don't need to be in a union to achieve them, being in a union make it a damn site easier to achieve.

But the Union is totally corrupt, why do we have to stay or be in such a corrupted power hungry union?

You even got France’s President Macron now insisting the EU needs to change, not to fall in the Brexit trap, i.e avoid the high Eurosceptism.

The EU does not want Brexit to succeed, for they don’t want other countries dropping out.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Mick

But the Union is totally corrupt, why do we have to stay or be in such a corrupted power hungry union?

You even got France’s President Macron now insisting the EU needs to change, not to fall in the Brexit trap, i.e avoid the high Eurosceptism.

The EU does not want Brexit to succeed, for they don’t want other countries dropping out.

I don't disagree that the EU is not without it's significant faults, but, i also believe that to be the case in any government globally including our own.

In my opinion i believe that we should continue to try and change that from within. however hard and frustrating that may be. In a world whereby globalization rightly or wrongly becomes closer and closer every day to me distancing ourselves from other nations in any degree seems odd

As i said earlier negotiating from a perspective of 66 million as opposed to part of a bloc of 500 million places us at a significant risk of being used and abused.

If/when we do leave the EU I'd love nothing more than to see than you/Old Boy and other people who want to leave being right. that we will survive and prosper. Unfortunately I haven't seen one shred of evidence that supports this yet. I think we'll see those in society already suffering hit further again.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

But the Union is totally corrupt, why do we have to stay or be in such a corrupted power hungry union?

You even got France’s President Macron now insisting the EU needs to change, not to fall in the Brexit trap, i.e avoid the high Eurosceptism.

The EU does not want Brexit to succeed, for they don’t want other countries dropping out.

Which Union is corrupt ? Not saying the EU is lilly white, but sometimes I wonder why we think politicians are so brilliant and trustworthy, and johnny foreigner is much worse. Events have proved otherwise. Remember cash for questions, MPs expenses, outright lies during the referendum. We want to give these people more power ?

Nothing is as simple as good/bad, winners/losers, as much as you'd like it to be.

Originally Posted by ianch99

You are still wrong I am afraid. The definition of a democratic mandate is not the absolute number that voted but rather the percentage of the available electorate that voted for the motion. The UK has a larger population than in 1975 so the electorate is larger in numeric terms.

No I am not wrong. I stand by what I say. The EU Referendum was the largest Democratic Mandate this country has ever seen. You work in % all you like, the actual physical numbers speak otherwise and they disagree with you.

Your approach to this issue, like others, mirrors the Leave campaign and all that led up to it. Take a fact and re-spin it into an alternative "fact" and then shout it from the rooftops, endlessly, as the "truth" until enough people start thinking it really is the truth.

I am not re-spinning anything, a fact is a fact, the number of voters beat the tally in 1975 for staying in the ECC, so it is the biggest mandate, the ECC, as it was known as in 1975, it certainly was not the EU as it as known as today, it is vastly different, exceedingly more corrupt and power hungry and becoming a heavy dictatorship entity.

Again, incorrect. In 1975, we were told about the increased political union:

UK Voters knew the 1975 Referendum was about both an ‘economic & political union’ with the rest of Europe

Nope again, I am not incorrect. I think we should just agree to disagree.

You look up when the EU as it is known as was formed, you will see 1992, 1993, when the Maastricht Treaty was signed, is when the EU became to be.

From Wikipedia:

The European Union is a political and economic union of 28 member states that are located primarily in Europe. It has an area of 4,475,757 km² and an estimated population of about 513 million. Wikipedia


Founded: 1 November 1993, Maastricht, Netherlands

On what grounds?

I never said I was, I was asking a rhetorical question, you was or seemed to be being quite insulting with your post earlier on describing your illogical reasons why folk voted to leave, however, it was harmless material, quite weak, seen before.

But let me make this abundantly clear. As much as we fundamentally disagree with each other on this issue. You're safe. I don't ban people willy nilly or because I simply don't agree with them, hell, this forum would be a dull place if we all agreed with each other.

If this was my M.O, you and others would have been long gone by now. In reality, I've banned just two people outright in the last couple of years and only because they were really really abusive to me personally, swearing and using derogatory language. Noone should tolerate this, I don't think you would, in my position. As one of the owners, this forum, this virtual place, partly belongs to me, so I am not going to stand there and take any disrespectful shit from anybody and it would be the only reason, and cross my grounds checklist to ban somebody, so, like I said, you're safe.

---------- Post added at 11:42 ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I don't disagree that the EU is not without it's significant faults, but, i also believe that to be the case in any government globally including our own.

In my opinion i believe that we should continue to try and change that from within. however hard and frustrating that may be. In a world whereby globalization rightly or wrongly becomes closer and closer every day to me distancing ourselves from other nations in any degree seems odd

As i said earlier negotiating from a perspective of 66 million as opposed to part of a bloc of 500 million places us at a significant risk of being used and abused.

If/when we do leave the EU I'd love nothing more than to see than you/Old Boy and other people who want to leave being right. that we will survive and prosper. Unfortunately I haven't seen one shred of evidence that supports this yet. I think we'll see those in society already suffering hit further again.

The whole process of delivering the Brexit I voted for, I have absolutely no confidence in this current government to deliver it, hell, we got a Prime Minister, former Home Secretary, in direct conflict with the Met Chief over the reduction in Police officers, with the PM saying the increase in knife crime is not linked to reduction of officers and the Met Chief today saying there is a link with the reduction in officers and the increase in deaths from stabbings and knife crime. I think May needs to go. She has made a right mess of everything she's had her hands on or in.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You don't like the term 'leave means leave' because it is so straight forward, simple and easy to comprehend.

We are not going to be cowed by remainers who deliberately try to complicate matters, which I have to say they have done with great success. 'Leave means leave' effectively leads to the disintegration of these remainer arguments.

The Norway solution does not mean leave. The EFTA solution does not mean leave. Another referendum would at the very minimum delay leave, as would a General Election. Corbyn's solution which would require us to remain in the Customs Union does not mean leave.

We were clearly told that if we left the EU, we would be able to forge our own trade deals. Only a clean break would achieve this.

In the end it boils down to a clean break with trade deals being negotiated with other countries including the EU or a withdrawal agreement which acts as a bridge between where we are now and where we want to be (that is, with trade deals including the EU). Those are the only real leave solutions. All the others you talk about are half-baked neither in nor out arrangements or barefaced cheek attempts to overturn the democratic result.

We see right through it and in the end, it won't work. We are going to leave, end of.

You see it as simple because for you it’s a matter of ideology, not of reality. Which is fine, appropriately simplistic, but fine.

The fact you conclude with “we are going to leave, end of” shows that your blind belief in ideology has clouded your judgement. There’s a long way to go in the race to March 29th and you’ll almost certainly be disappointed.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

You see it as simple because for you it’s a matter of ideology, not of reality. Which is fine, appropriately simplistic, but fine.

The fact you conclude with “we are going to leave, end of” shows that your blind belief in ideology has clouded your judgement. There’s a long way to go in the race to March 29th and you’ll almost certainly be disappointed.

I wouldn't bet money on that if I were you, although that date could potentially slip by a few weeks to permit implementation.

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I don't disagree that the EU is not without it's significant faults, but, i also believe that to be the case in any government globally including our own.

In my opinion i believe that we should continue to try and change that from within. however hard and frustrating that may be. In a world whereby globalization rightly or wrongly becomes closer and closer every day to me distancing ourselves from other nations in any degree seems odd

As i said earlier negotiating from a perspective of 66 million as opposed to part of a bloc of 500 million places us at a significant risk of being used and abused.

If/when we do leave the EU I'd love nothing more than to see than you/Old Boy and other people who want to leave being right. that we will survive and prosper. Unfortunately I haven't seen one shred of evidence that supports this yet. I think we'll see those in society already suffering hit further again.

David Cameron tried that, and look where it got him. Had he won the crumbs he was seeking to achieve, the referendum would never have happened. The EU is totally inflexible, and in your heart, you know that.

Macron is only saying now that something has to change, but that's all thanks to Brexit.

I don't see Brexit as distancing ourselves from other nations. On the contrary, we want to forge new trade deals with the rest of the world, including with the EU.