Brexit

Originally Posted by nomadking

Also bear in mind that the WA is NOT a final agreement. It could get worse, especially if Corbyn got hold of things.

Do you not think the consequence of No Deal with led to the circumstances in which Corbyn does get hold of things?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Your argument, such as it is, is predicated on a basis on certainty and entitlement.

Certainty:

The Leave voters believe, not beyond reasonable doubt but beyond *any* doubt that they have right on their side. History tells us that is a recipe for things that nations tend to regret.

Entitlement:

They believe that an ill judged and ill conceived referendum result gives the Leave side an incontrovertible mandate to impose a national structural & economic change based on a vote that had no minimal turnout and a legal result that could be decided by a single person's vote. They also think they have no need to accommodate the wishes and concerns of 48% of the electorate that voted Remain. The 'Winner Takes All" attitude is why we are in this mess.

On both counts, no surprise here, I think they are wrong. They have every right to believe they are correct and I have every to believe (and articulate) why they are wrong.

I totally "get it" ..

Well you obviously don’t get it, or just can’t read as that waffle you have just typed out has nothing to do with the point I was making.

The point being that regardless of who you may think is right or wrong -

(and you can whinge all day long about the legitimacy of the referendum as you have just done above, it is gone, it happened, as I tell my kids crying about it won’t change it - they seem to understand the concept and they’re 8 & 4 respectively)

- doesn’t matter. Leavers and Remainers are now entrenched in their positions. All the information is out there, no one is now going to change their minds and the longer this goes on the more hardcore will the positions become. Leave at all costs/ remain at all costs.

So pointing out terrible and damaging a Brexit and particularly a no-deal Brexit is now just a waste of time you’re not going to convert anyone to your point of view and vice versa.

As mentioned previously and in the Sky piece, compromise is required, but compromise is a vote loser. The WA was compromise and both sides hated it.

We are at an impasse and I don’t think it will be resolved. The EU are adamant the WA will not be revisited and that is all that is on the table.

Perhaps a new President of the Commission and Council may be prepared to re-open talks but if not Oct 31st will come around very quickly and if nothing has changed what do you do? Ask for another extension? For what?

I honestly have no clue how or when this is going to end, I don’t think anyone does.

Originally Posted by ianch99

I agree, Andrew. Compromise is, however, a dirty word now. The populist approach which places spin over substance is dominant. So many people, for different reasons, are happy with a Hard Brexit. Most are not questioning how will it impact their personal situation. They are just repeating the dogma sound bites but not asking the really important questions e.g. "Show me exactly why I will not be poorer?"

For a nation that had a global reputation for pragmatism and common sense, we have basically lost it, big style.

---------- Post added at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 ----------



Your argument, such as it is, is predicated on a basis on certainty and entitlement.

Certainty:

The Leave voters believe, not beyond reasonable doubt but beyond *any* doubt that they have right on their side. History tells us that is a recipe for things that nations tend to regret.

Entitlement:

They believe that an ill judged and ill conceived referendum result gives the Leave side an incontrovertible mandate to impose a national structural & economic change based on a vote that had no minimal turnout and a legal result that could be decided by a single person's vote. They also think they have no need to accommodate the wishes and concerns of 48% of the electorate that voted Remain. The 'Winner Takes All" attitude is why we are in this mess.

On both counts, no surprise here, I think they are wrong. They have every right to believe they are correct and I have every to believe (and articulate) why they are wrong.

I totally "get it" ..

Same could be said of you. Always thinking your view is right. You are not.

Still peddling the project fear bullshit, still trying to delegitimise a Democratic process because you don’t agree with the result and so is Hugh.

The argument about staying and leaving is done with. The majority of people voted to leave, they can see past the lies and project fear from the Remainers. We’ve voted to leave, three times now, that is democracy, you keep going on about people being poorer, utter bullshit. You’re just a sheep following the negative Remainer narrative that leaving will be bad for Britain. It will not, the people voted out so we should leave.

We do not need to be in a corrupt union that mocks us and scorns at us and treats us like shit, why you Remainers want to be associated and Remain in this disgusting bloc is beyond me. They have handicapped us for 40+ years and we can be free of them and stop paying the absolute con job fee to be in their ugly corrupt club.

[Dave42]

Boris Johnson to face court over alleged EU referendum misconduct

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...nduct-11730747

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Dave42

Boris Johnson to face court over alleged EU referendum misconduct

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...nduct-11730747

Good to see a genuine little guy taking on the establishment.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Dave42

Boris Johnson to face court over alleged EU referendum misconduct

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...nduct-11730747

Why single Boris out, you could summons almost all of Parliament by that yardstick.

And really are we going to go over the 350 million thing again, that was debated and clarified a thousand times during the debate, and mislead no one.

[denphone]

Personally l don't like Boris Johnson at all but given this has come out today l would say there are some political shenanigans at work here.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Same could be said of you. Always thinking your view is right. You are not.

Still peddling the project fear bullshit, still trying to delegitimise a Democratic process because you don’t agree with the result and so is Hugh.

The argument about staying and leaving is done with. The majority of people voted to leave, they can see past the lies and project fear from the Remainers. We’ve voted to leave, three times now, that is democracy, you keep going on about people being poorer, utter bullshit. You’re just a sheep following the negative Remainer narrative that leaving will be bad for Britain. It will not, the people voted out so we should leave.

We do not need to be in a corrupt union that mocks us and scorns at us and treats us like shit, why you Remainers want to be associated and Remain in this disgusting bloc is beyond me. They have handicapped us for 40+ years and we can be free of them and stop paying the absolute con job fee to be in their ugly corrupt club.

Mick, Ian is agreeing with the need for compromise on the issue and I urge everyone to do the same. A puritanical Brexit or puritanical Remain stance is not the way to solve the situation. A solution involves stepping down from entrenched positions on both sides of the debate.
The country does not want a hard Brexit, a second referendum or another election.
We need to find a grown-up way through this mess.

---------- Post added at 11:01 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Why single Boris out, you could summons almost all of Parliament by that yardstick.

You have to start somewhere. If this forces politicians of all colours to be more honest then it's a good thing in my book. Unfortunately, politicians have exempted themselves from the rules laid out by the Advertising Standards Authority.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Good to see a genuine little guy taking on the establishment.

Who ? Boris ??

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well you obviously don’t get it, or just can’t read as that waffle you have just typed out has nothing to do with the point I was making.

The point being that regardless of who you may think is right or wrong -

(and you can whinge all day long about the legitimacy of the referendum as you have just done above, it is gone, it happened, as I tell my kids crying about it won’t change it - they seem to understand the concept and they’re 8 & 4 respectively)

- doesn’t matter. Leavers and Remainers are now entrenched in their positions. All the information is out there, no one is now going to change their minds and the longer this goes on the more hardcore will the positions become. Leave at all costs/ remain at all costs.

So pointing out terrible and damaging a Brexit and particularly a no-deal Brexit is now just a waste of time you’re not going to convert anyone to your point of view and vice versa.

As mentioned previously and in the Sky piece, compromise is required, but compromise is a vote loser. The WA was compromise and both sides hated it.

We are at an impasse and I don’t think it will be resolved. The EU are adamant the WA will not be revisited and that is all that is on the table.

Perhaps a new President of the Commission and Council may be prepared to re-open talks but if not Oct 31st will come around very quickly and if nothing has changed what do you do? Ask for another extension? For what?

I honestly have no clue how or when this is going to end, I don’t think anyone does.

Sad that you have to resort (again) to trying to belittle people (whinge, kids crying, etc) instead of making a cogent point.

---------- Post added at 11:05 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------

Originally Posted by Dave42

Boris Johnson to face court over alleged EU referendum misconduct

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...nduct-11730747

I wonder if this will damage his PM chances?

The court case is unlikely to get anywhere but I am surprised they actually managed to get a summons out of it! I am not sure what actual law you can get him on.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Sad that you have to resort (again) to trying to belittle people (whinge, kids crying, etc) instead of making a cogent point.

I can multitask belittling people and making a cogent point all in one post and the points i have made in my previous posts still stand.

Originally Posted by Damien

The court case is unlikely to get anywhere but I am surprised they actually managed to get a summons out of it! I am not sure what actual law you can get him on.

This was from Boris Johnson's defence:

'The application represents an attempt, for the first time in English legal history, to employ the criminal law to regulate the content and quality of
political debate

'That is self-evidently not the function of the criminal law'

[Mr K]

Maybe it should be a matter of law, then the politicians couldn't get away with all the porky pies.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well you obviously don’t get it, or just can’t read as that waffle you have just typed out has nothing to do with the point I was making.

The point being that regardless of who you may think is right or wrong -

(and you can whinge all day long about the legitimacy of the referendum as you have just done above, it is gone, it happened, as I tell my kids crying about it won’t change it - they seem to understand the concept and they’re 8 & 4 respectively)

- doesn’t matter. Leavers and Remainers are now entrenched in their positions. All the information is out there, no one is now going to change their minds and the longer this goes on the more hardcore will the positions become. Leave at all costs/ remain at all costs.

So pointing out terrible and damaging a Brexit and particularly a no-deal Brexit is now just a waste of time you’re not going to convert anyone to your point of view and vice versa.

As mentioned previously and in the Sky piece, compromise is required, but compromise is a vote loser. The WA was compromise and both sides hated it.

We are at an impasse and I don’t think it will be resolved. The EU are adamant the WA will not be revisited and that is all that is on the table.

Perhaps a new President of the Commission and Council may be prepared to re-open talks but if not Oct 31st will come around very quickly and if nothing has changed what do you do? Ask for another extension? For what?

I honestly have no clue how or when this is going to end, I don’t think anyone does.

Pierre, I think with the bolded parts you've nailed the position we're in.

None of the options we have available will work for the country as a whole, regardless of which side you're on.