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Old 29-06-2018, 20:36   #3331
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post

You can see a narrative forming here: if Mrs May does not get a "good" deal, one that both the EU and the UK can agree on then we fall back to WTO rules with all that entails. Of course, when this happens, we will patently worse off, in many respects than now, so what we will see from the Brexiteers and the right wing press is a proclamation of betrayal.
Well, of course, it will be one or the other. The EU must choose. What other options are there that do not betray the wishes of the British electorate?

The reason we are in this position is because they sent Cameron, with his modest proposals, back to Britain with a thick ear. I think that was the point at which the tide turned as far as public opinion was concerned.

Now they can choose whether to have a friendly, co-operative arrangement with us, which most of us would prefer, or whether they want an aggressive competitor. They can only blame themselves if they make another wrong call.

Incidentally, with the WTO deal there will be some disruption for a while, but we will end up better off.
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Old 29-06-2018, 22:41   #3332
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Dave42 View Post
you do know Republic is in the EU right and there no change of them becoming part of UK

---------- Post added at 16:46 ---------- Previous post was at 16:39 ----------



what utter nonsense you do know the brexstremists want WTO rules don't you and under there rules there have to be a hard border eu don't control WTO rules
you seem to be deliberately obfuscating the issue. I didn’t say anything about whether or not there should be a hard border. Indeed, I’m sure there must be if we fully leave the EU and it’s main institutions.

I simply said that the EU were pulling levers to try and stop a hard border, using the GOod Friday Agreement as their excuse for their underlying target of keeping us in those principal institutions.

Remember, there was a democratic referendum the result of which was a majority vote to leave the EU. Let there be a border between the Ireland’s.
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Old 29-06-2018, 22:42   #3333
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Yes, you can, Andrew. As I keep saying, you need to think outside the box.

Just bake another cake. Simples.

---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------



What they want and what they will get might be two different things!

It will be a virtual border, monitored by technology. The EU is trying to make that idea appear nonsense to get leverage, but in fact it is perfectly possible. There will also be monitoring with cameras, but not necessarily on the actual border itself.

My bet is on the 'maximum facilitation' method or a variant of it. That makes perfect sense to me.

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:26 ----------


That may be their stance, but that's just to keep the pressure up to intimidate Brussells and the remainer extremists.

As long as we secure a dealmwith the EU that provides for us to trade with the rest of the wofld outside of the EU's jurisdiction, I am sure that most Brexiteers will be satisfied.

If we end up with WTO rules, that will be a Brussells failure, and they will live to regret it.
em the EU have laid out there position it the uk Government that cant decide what they want OB

Last edited by Dave42; 29-06-2018 at 23:18.
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Old 29-06-2018, 23:09   #3334
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Re: Brexit discussion

Could I just ask, when was the last time there was a hard border between Eire and N.I?
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Old 29-06-2018, 23:13   #3335
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Could I just ask, when was the last time there was a hard border between Eire and N.I?
didn't they disappear as part of good Friday agreement
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Old 29-06-2018, 23:32   #3336
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Dave42 View Post
em the EU have laid out there position it the uk Government that cant decide what they want OB
The EU is playing a game by putting obstacles in the way. After the meeting of the Cabinet next Friday, the British Government will put a set of detailed proposals to Brussels. That will be the crunch moment. If the EU turn that down out of hand as they have done with precvious proposals, there will be a hard Brexit. As they clearly don't want that, I am sure that common sense will kick in, at last.
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Old 29-06-2018, 23:45   #3337
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Re: Brexit discussion

how can there do that when they got no idea what uk want as they keep changing messages with all the infighting in government
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Old 30-06-2018, 00:31   #3338
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 View Post
how can there do that when they got no idea what uk want as they keep changing messages with all the infighting in government
We are in this position because of EU tactics. When we put the White Paper wording after next Friday's meeting withbthe Cabinet, I really think that will be the last chance szlloon.

It's Brussels that needs to step up. Don't allow yourself to be hoodwinked by EU propaganda. We all need to get behind May for tne best possible deal.

If the remainers manage to persuade the EU to say 'Non' to our detailed proposals, they will have secured for themselves a hard Brexit. I didn't think they wanted that.
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Old 30-06-2018, 00:45   #3339
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
We are in this position because of EU tactics. When we put the White Paper wording after next Friday's meeting withbthe Cabinet, I really think that will be the last chance szlloon.

It's Brussels that needs to step up. Don't allow yourself to be hoodwinked by EU propaganda. We all need to get behind May for tne best possible deal.

If the remainers manage to persuade the EU to say 'Non' to our detailed proposals, they will have secured for themselves a hard Brexit. I didn't think they wanted that.
what utter nonsense OB we in this position because of UK government has not got a clue they had 2 years the Eu position been laid out from day 1: It you brexstremists that's living in fantasy island it the brexstremists that want a no deal fall off cliff to happen

Last edited by Dave42; 30-06-2018 at 00:50.
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Old 30-06-2018, 01:52   #3340
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 View Post
what utter nonsense OB we in this position because of UK government has not got a clue they had 2 years the Eu position been laid out from day 1: It you brexstremists that's living in fantasy island it the brexstremists that want a no deal fall off cliff to happen
No, Dave, you have this completely wrong.

David Cameron pledged to the British people that he would hold a referendum on whether people wanted to leave the EU. He really did think the public would say that they wanted to remain, but he didn't bargain on the strength of feeling that resulted from the EU sending him back with his tail between his legs having put to them some extremely modest proposals, which fell short of what a lot of people wanted.

He was mortified when the electorate voted to leave, and he acknowledged his error by resigning.

It should be clear to everyone that this was an unexpected result as far as the establishment was concerned and we were not prepared for the 'no' vote.

Theresa May is picking up the pieces and has had to grapple with the deep intricacies of this situation. She has had to acknowledge that the public want immigration controlled, the feeling that we should be making our own laws and we should look for more trade outside the EU.

Everyone now surely understands that this is not an easy thing to achieve, even with a majority in Parliament, which TM doesn't have.

To attain what the British people have voted for, it has now become obvious to most people with a brain that we have to not only leave the EU, but also pull out of the Common Market and the Customs Union.

Clearly, this is not an easy nut to crack, but given the decision of the electorate and TM's lack of a majority, what would you have her do?

To my mind, she is more than half way to achieving her goal, and I think she will get there. If the EU stand firm and say 'Non', it will be the hard Brexit that no-one wants.

So, in all seriousness, Dave, what would you have her do? Betray the British electorate and say "oh, all right, then" to the EU or stand up for what the majority voted for?

You might not have voted for this yourself, but as a true democrat, I'm sure that you want the will of the electorate to be carried out.

What say you? Do you agree or do you agree?
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Old 30-06-2018, 02:19   #3341
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Dave42 View Post
how can there do that when they got no idea what uk want as they keep changing messages with all the infighting in government
Spot on. David Davis has only spent four hours negotiating with his counterpart Barnier THIS YEAR. Until the UK Government decides what it actually wants, there is very little to negotiate.

---------- Post added at 01:19 ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
The EU is playing a game by putting obstacles in the way. After the meeting of the Cabinet next Friday, the British Government will put a set of detailed proposals to Brussels. That will be the crunch moment. If the EU turn that down out of hand as they have done with precvious proposals, there will be a hard Brexit. As they clearly don't want that, I am sure that common sense will kick in, at last.
The EU has been patiently awaiting the UK's proposals for two years and has had nothing to turn down.
The UK also has to honour the backstop agreement for the Irish border which it signed up to in December.
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Old 30-06-2018, 02:20   #3342
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Spot on. David Davis has only spent four hours negotiating with his counterpart Barnier THIS YEAR. Until the UK Government decides what it actually wants, there is very little to negotiate.
The British Government is well aware of how the EU negotiates. Lay all your cards on the table and they will just rubbish them from the start , for no good reason.

We are playing the EU at their own game and they don't like it. We will come up with a take it or leave it solution at a late hour - just see what they make of that! To refuse it would incur fury from other EU countries who value their trade with GB.

We assume that if you were leading the negotiations, you would have rolled over to have your tummy tickled (or perhaps a punch in the kidneys) a long time ago.
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Old 30-06-2018, 08:35   #3343
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Re: Brexit discussion

I thought this was a divorce not a game of cards.
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Old 30-06-2018, 09:17   #3344
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Dave42 View Post
didn't they disappear as part of good Friday agreement
The GFA makes no mention of borders other than cross-border cooperation. The EU insistence on no borders is a pure device to defeat Brexit.
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Old 30-06-2018, 09:23   #3345
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
The British Government is well aware of how the EU negotiates. Lay all your cards on the table and they will just rubbish them from the start , for no good reason.

We are playing the EU at their own game and they don't like it. We will come up with a take it or leave it solution at a late hour - just see what they make of that! To refuse it would incur fury from other EU countries who value their trade with GB.

We assume that if you were leading the negotiations, you would have rolled over to have your tummy tickled (or perhaps a punch in the kidneys) a long time ago.
Try and play the ball and not the man, Old Boy. And why the Royal we in "We assume.."
Anyway, Barnier issued an infographic showing exactly what the implications of various red lines would be once the UK issued Article 50. The EU can't alter its constitution to change these facts without the agreement of all EU members. And one key objective is to ensure that a country will be better off as an EU member than being a third country, or other countries might be tempted to leave as well.
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