Home News Forum Articles
  Welcome back Join CF
You are here You are here: Home | Forum | Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most of the discussions, articles and other free features. By joining our Virgin Media community you will have full access to all discussions, be able to view and post threads, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own images/photos, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please join our community today.


Welcome to Cable Forum
Go Back   Cable Forum > Virgin Media Services > Virgin Media Internet Service

Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 19-03-2008, 23:55   #1486
lucevans
Inactive
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 272
lucevans is a glorious beacon of lightlucevans is a glorious beacon of lightlucevans is a glorious beacon of lightlucevans is a glorious beacon of lightlucevans is a glorious beacon of lightlucevans is a glorious beacon of lightlucevans is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
This is the second comment I have seen on The Register regarding Virgin already using Phorm. The first one stated that VM support told them that the system was already running and there was no way to opt out. I never publicised the first comment because it was contrary to the email responses reported elsewhere from VM saying it was not yet implemented, but when I see 2 claims that it is, I get a little more persuaded that it -may- be true. Ultimately we need a bunch of you guys who are actually using VM to run the tests for yourself and see if it is true.

Alexander Hanff
What tests can we do to find out? I read somewhere that a tracert doesn't really help much, as routing can appear pretty bizarre at the best of times, even without the sneaky redirects that Phorm performs. What should we be looking for?
lucevans is offline  
Advertisement
Old 19-03-2008, 23:58   #1487
Anonymouse
RIP Tigger
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bolton
Age: 52
Services: Sky Fibre Max
Posts: 1,316
Anonymouse has a bronzed appealAnonymouse has a bronzed appeal
Anonymouse has a bronzed appealAnonymouse has a bronzed appealAnonymouse has a bronzed appealAnonymouse has a bronzed appealAnonymouse has a bronzed appeal
Angry I Got A Reply To My Dpa Letter!

- by email, that is. Go figure. I send a letter by registered post and they reply with an email (subject: 'Your Recent Enquiry' - what the hell? What "enquiry"?!). Says it all, really, doesn't it?

And the best they can do, it seems, is to include in it a link to the page about Webwise on their own site! Oh, come ON!!!

Did whoever read that letter actually read it? I serve them a DPA notice that I don't want anything whatsoever to do with this - and never mind all this opt-in/opt-out cobblers - and all they can think of is to direct me to a page which doesn't really answer anyone's questions? Unbelievable. Do they want our custom or don't they? If not they should damn well say so and we'll all go and make BE or whoever very happy.

Virgin, for the last time: We. Do. Not. Need. Webwise. Browsers have such filters built-in now; this is not 1988. Where have you been?!

I've made up my mind. It's going to be a total pain, but if I can't trust my ISP, if they can't even give me a proper reply to a legitimate concern, then I don't want to know - if they implement this I'm off, end of. It's too risky, to say nothing of being extremely offensive re their attitude towards their subscribers.

(However, if the mods don't mind I'd like to stay on this board, if only to keep up on events.)
__________________
"I am what I am"
- Descartes (or Popeye - sources differ)
Anonymouse is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 00:14   #1488
Ravenheart
cf.mega poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: South Birmingham
Posts: 1,427
Ravenheart has a bronzed appealRavenheart has a bronzed appeal
Ravenheart has a bronzed appealRavenheart has a bronzed appealRavenheart has a bronzed appeal
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucevans View Post
What tests can we do to find out? I read somewhere that a tracert doesn't really help much, as routing can appear pretty bizarre at the best of times, even without the sneaky redirects that Phorm performs. What should we be looking for?
As Lucevans request, what can we do to help find out if VM have implemented it already?
Ravenheart is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 00:22   #1489
Tezcatlipoca
Inactive
 
Tezcatlipoca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 16,850
Tezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny starsTezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny starsTezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny starsTezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny starsTezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny stars
Tezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny starsTezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny starsTezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny starsTezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny starsTezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny starsTezcatlipoca has a pair of shiny stars
Re: I Got A Reply To My Dpa Letter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymouse View Post

(However, if the mods don't mind I'd like to stay on this board, if only to keep up on events.)
[/FONT]

Feel free - stick around, keep reading, & keep posting

You don't have to be a VM customer to be a member of CF.

We're unofficial & independent. Although we're primarily a forum providing help etc. for VM customers, we do also have sections for non-VM TV/'net/phone suppliers as well as various Off Topic sections.

We have plenty of members (& at least one Mod ) who used to be VM/ntl/TW customers - they still post here & we're happy for them to do so.
Tezcatlipoca is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 00:25   #1490
popper
Inactive
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,270
popper has a bronze arraypopper has a bronze arraypopper has a bronze array
popper has a bronze arraypopper has a bronze arraypopper has a bronze arraypopper has a bronze arraypopper has a bronze arraypopper has a bronze array
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
See this

http://denyphorm.blogspot.com/2008/0...ort-crime.html

But rest assured, some of the people from last summer are currently building a case to present to the police, I have that on very good authority (from the horses mouth so to speak).

Alexander Hanff
i liked the
Anonymous said... Do Phorm comply with the following, does it apply?

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/codes/cap_...clause_id=1490

The CAP Code - Rules
SUBSTANTIATION
Before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation.

Relevant evidence should be sent without delay if requested by the ASA or CAP. The adequacy of evidence will be judged on whether it supports both the detailed claims and the overall impression created by the marketing communication.

The full name and geographical business address of marketers should be provided without delay if requested by the ASA or CAP.

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/codes/cap_...clause_id=1501

The CAP Code - Rules
HONESTY
Marketers should not exploit the credulity, lack of knowledge or inexperience of consumers.

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/codes/cap_...clause_id=1503
The CAP Code - Rules
TRUTHFULNESS
No marketing communication should mislead, or be likely to mislead, by inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, omission or otherwise.

it seems PRs BBC 70% dont trust story linked to Phorm by him droped off the cliff on that last one...
popper is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 00:41   #1491
mertle
Inactive
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,134
mertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quadsmertle has a fine set of Quads
Re: I Got A Reply To My Dpa Letter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymouse View Post
- by email, that is. Go figure. I send a letter by registered post and they reply with an email (subject: 'Your Recent Enquiry' - what the hell? What "enquiry"?!). Says it all, really, doesn't it?

And the best they can do, it seems, is to include in it a link to the page about Webwise on their own site! Oh, come ON!!!

Did whoever read that letter actually read it? I serve them a DPA notice that I don't want anything whatsoever to do with this - and never mind all this opt-in/opt-out cobblers - and all they can think of is to direct me to a page which doesn't really answer anyone's questions? Unbelievable. Do they want our custom or don't they? If not they should damn well say so and we'll all go and make BE or whoever very happy.

Virgin, for the last time: We. Do. Not. Need. Webwise. Browsers have such filters built-in now; this is not 1988. Where have you been?!

I've made up my mind. It's going to be a total pain, but if I can't trust my ISP, if they can't even give me a proper reply to a legitimate concern, then I don't want to know - if they implement this I'm off, end of. It's too risky, to say nothing of being extremely offensive re their attitude towards their subscribers.

(However, if the mods don't mind I'd like to stay on this board, if only to keep up on events.)
that sucks typical businesses atitude you take the time effort and COST to give them registered DPA notice they gice you rubbish email. I bet your letter hit there waste paper bin they just read your contact details gave you the standard bad business finger salute standard reply. Get this according to webwise opt out we are not active so NOW have no opt out option. You cannot Get the webwise opt out cookie this what the home page says.

Quote:
Webwise is: NOT AVAILABLE

Webwise is not available in your area, so it is not possible to switch on or off.
Just to add more twist to this sorry saga especially IF VM gone all COVERT with nasty underhand switch on.

Thank god that dephormation forcing the opt out cookie. Pete is
mertle is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 00:41   #1492
mark777
Inactive
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Services: 0.4 Mbps BB + Phone
Posts: 447
mark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
Well VirginMedia.....
By Anonymous Coward
Posted Wednesday 19th March 2008 22:09 GMT
Flame

....have already implemented this system and it is running. They say on their site they will reveal information closer to roll-out but upon scanning my machine and using a packet scanner on my internet connection it seems they are already using this system.

I wonder for how long now.....

Burn VM Burn
Has anybody asked Virgin if it has ever run, perhaps as a trial? Are there any definitive statements from Virgin?

I've assumed the silence from them is because they are still calculating potential profit/loss i.e. money gained from phorm vs. money lost by 'marketing targets' walking away.

Maybe they are keeping their heads down because they have more to hide. If not guilty, it's simple for them to issue a denial.
mark777 is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 00:52   #1493
CaptJamieHunter
Inactive
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 234
CaptJamieHunter will become famous soon enoughCaptJamieHunter will become famous soon enoughCaptJamieHunter will become famous soon enough
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucevans View Post
What tests can we do to find out? I read somewhere that a tracert doesn't really help much, as routing can appear pretty bizarre at the best of times, even without the sneaky redirects that Phorm performs. What should we be looking for?
Firing up a vanilla version of Opera rather than my tied down Firefox and did a quick bit of surfing, there are no cookies from oix, webwise or phorm. Naturally I kept to sites which are not signed up to the oix agreement.

The Virgin Media Group Data Protection Officer, Ian Woodham, wrote a hand signed letter to me (posted previously) saying:

"...nothing has yet been implemented and we are still carrying out our analysis of how we will deploy Phorm's product offering"

If Virgin Media have implemented Phorm then they have gone against their commitment to advise their customers as per Regulation 6 of the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003.

In my reply to Mr Woodham I specifically requested "Please confirm that there is no equipment provided by or in any way connected to Phorm on the Virgin Media network." He is also aware that any future responses may well be quoted elsewhere.
CaptJamieHunter is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 01:00   #1494
AlexanderHanff
Permanently Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,028
AlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful one
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I will get back to people on the questions re: how to check if VM is using Phorm on your connection as I only have a few minutes (look at tcpdump and tcptraceroute if you get a chance meanwhile (note tcptraceroute -not- traceroute)).

But I did have a think earlier about some more sinister consequences of this system with regards to shared computers.

One example is domestic abuse. Say for example a female victim of domestic abuse is searching for support groups or information about leaving her husband/partner and this happens to get picked up by the profiler because the sites she is looking at are not on the "blacklist". She spends several days doing this whilst her husband/partner is at work, then one night he logs on and starts browsing the net. He happens upon a site which is using the OIX advertising platform and sees ads related to his partner's/wife's recent browsing habits. We could potentially see tragic consequences, even deaths as a result of severe violent reactions to the discovery.

Other examples are child abuse victims, people with medical conditions they have kept hidden from the family etc. Even less "serious" scenarios where one's partner is looking for a birthday gift for you and you happen to use the computer after a profile has been built up could lead to upsetting consequences.

There is a lot that really doesn't seem to have been thought of when assessing the impact this technology could have on the more vulnerable members of our society.

Alexander Hanff
AlexanderHanff is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 01:00   #1495
BeckyD
Inactive
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ipswich, UK
Age: 38
Services: 8Mb Aquiss BB, BT Phone, Sky TV
Posts: 56
BeckyD is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I've downloaded a copy of tracetcp for Windows, but I'm not sure how to spot any routing through webwise/phorm. Does this look normal? The first two hops are my router (I think), I can easily connect a PC directly to the modem if necessary.

Quote:
Tracing route to 212.58.251.207 [www5.telhc.bbc.co.uk] on port 80
Over a maximum of 30 hops.
1 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 192.168.1.1
2 10 ms 12 ms 20 ms 10.89.232.1
3 12 ms 12 ms 31 ms 81.103.8.29 [colc-t2cam1-a-v104.inet.ntl.com]
4 14 ms 13 ms 31 ms 195.182.176.233 [colc-t2core-a-ge-wan61.inet.ntl.com]
5 13 ms 37 ms 13 ms 62.253.188.201 [pop-bb-a-so-032-0.inet.ntl.com]
6 19 ms 13 ms 12 ms 213.105.174.230 [pop-bb-b-ae0-0.inet.ntl.com]
7 18 ms 20 ms 16 ms 62.253.184.6 [tele-ic-2-as0-0.inet.ntl.com]
8 35 ms 25 ms 14 ms 212.58.239.217 [ntl-ge2-8.prt0.thdo.bbc.co.uk]
9 14 ms 16 ms 14 ms 212.58.238.129
10 13 ms 17 ms 15 ms 212.58.239.58
11 Destination Reached in 19 ms. Connection established to 212.58.251.207
Trace Complete.
BeckyD is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 01:03   #1496
AlexanderHanff
Permanently Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,028
AlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful one
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyMinion View Post
I've downloaded a copy of tracetcp for Windows, but I'm not sure how to spot any routing through webwise/phorm. Does this look normal? The first two hops are my router (I think), I can easily connect a PC directly to the modem if necessary.
2nd hop is not your router unless you are using network bridging, or at least it doesn't look like it is to me (plus the ping is pretty high for your router).

Alexander Hanff
AlexanderHanff is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 01:09   #1497
BeckyD
Inactive
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ipswich, UK
Age: 38
Services: 8Mb Aquiss BB, BT Phone, Sky TV
Posts: 56
BeckyD is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
2nd hop is not your router unless you are using network bridging, or at least it doesn't look like it is to me (plus the ping is pretty high for your router).

Alexander Hanff
Yeah, I wasn't sure about that 2nd hop either, not sure what it is to be honest.

Are the rest of my results any good to you? They look normal to me, but I'm no expert with this this kind of thing.

Ooh, I have just remembered I'm using OpenDNS - will that affect the result?
BeckyD is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 01:20   #1498
moaningmags
Inactive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Scotland
Age: 45
Services: 20mb, Tv, Phone
Posts: 2,849
moaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze array
moaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze arraymoaningmags has a bronze array
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

2 10 ms 12 ms 20 ms 10.89.232.1

This is the private ip address for the modem.
moaningmags is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 01:24   #1499
BeckyD
Inactive
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ipswich, UK
Age: 38
Services: 8Mb Aquiss BB, BT Phone, Sky TV
Posts: 56
BeckyD is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by moaningmags View Post
2 10 ms 12 ms 20 ms 10.89.232.1

This is the private ip address for the modem.
Ta muchly!
BeckyD is offline  
Old 20-03-2008, 01:36   #1500
AlexanderHanff
Permanently Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,028
AlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful oneAlexanderHanff is the helpful one
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by moaningmags View Post
2 10 ms 12 ms 20 ms 10.89.232.1

This is the private ip address for the modem.
The latency between the 192 and 10 address if they are on the same device should be much much lower than 10-12ms. I would expect it to show as <1ms. That second hop looks like it is on the WAN not the LAN note how it is similar to the other hops on the NTL network.

You sure that is not the NTL gateway address?

Excuse my brief answers I am in and out of the office atm tending to my 2 year old.

Alexander Hanff
AlexanderHanff is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:24.


Server: xenon.zmnt.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.