UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal

[Mr K]

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Looks like the fishing question will be a sticking point. Remainers may well bleat that fishing is such a small part of our economy. But fishing waters are completely totemic to the matter of sovereignty.

We left the EU precisely because they are like this - grabbers, protectionists, schemers.

We left the EU precisely because we are like this - grabbers, protectionists, schemers

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

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We left the EU precisely because we are like this - grabbers, protectionists, schemers

You have no evidence for that. Leaving is not grabbing, etc. It is freedom from shackles, which, of course, is a point you have consistently ignored.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You have no evidence for that. Leaving is not grabbing, etc. It is freedom from shackles, which, of course, is a point you have consistently ignored.

So in what way are you more 'free' this month than you were last month?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

So in what way are you more 'free' this month than you were last month?

Don't be silly. Ignoring for the puepose of your question the transition period, we have unshackled ourselves from the EU. As if you didn't know.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Don't be silly. Ignoring for the puepose of your question the transition period, we have unshackled ourselves from the EU. As if you didn't know.

If anything we'll be losing as many freedoms as any we're gaining. E.g. freedom of movement for UK workers to work anywhere in the EU. Though I guess most Brexiteers are long past working....

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

If anything we'll be losing as many freedoms as any we're gaining. E.g. freedom of movement for UK workers to work anywhere in the EU. Though I guess most Brexiteers are long past working....

Beyond freedom of movement, please list as many meaningful freedoms we are losing as you can think of.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Beyond freedom of movement, please list as many meaningful freedoms we are losing as you can think of.

Ok, reciprocal healthcare, workers rights, consumer rights, easier travel, and the little matter of trade with our biggest trading partner. Yes there may be new arrangements but they won't be as good, the EU will make sure of that.

However the decision has been made, but I think some are going to be awfully disappointed when they realise what 'freedom' means in practice,; mostly freedom for our own Govt. to screw us over without fear of any check on them. It'll benefit a few toffs at the expense of the rest of us.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Ok, reciprocal healthcare, workers rights, consumer rights, easier travel, and the little matter of trade with our biggest trading partner. Yes there may be new arrangements but they won't be as good, the EU will make sure of that.

However the decision has been made, but I think some are going to be awfully disappointed when they realise what 'freedom' means in practice,; mostly freedom for our own Govt. to screw us over without fear of any check on them. It'll benefit a few toffs at the expense of the rest of us.

Reciprocal healthcare: Negotiable and is not a freedom;

Workers' Rights: Not under threat. You're making that up. None have been lost.

Consumer rights: Which?

Easier Travel: Not a freedom; just a convenience,

Trade: Is not a freedom. It is negotiable.

Nasty EU. We're right to be shot of them.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Nasty EU. We're right to be shot of them.

Just keep believing that if it helps you.

Who next to blame though when there isn't a bright new dawn? Nasty Govt, Nasty homeless, Nasty BBC, Nasty Civil Service, Nasty Boris ?? The grass as we'll find isn't always greener. As part of a bigger economic unit we had protection and influence, now we have none.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Just keep believing that if it helps you.

Who next to blame though when there isn't a bright new dawn? Nasty Govt, Nasty homeless, Nasty BBC, Nasty Civil Service, Nasty Boris ?? The grass as well find isn't always greener. As part of a bigger economic unit we had protection and influence, now we have none.

A part of a bigger economic unit, we were actually subordinated to the will of France and Germany. Is that what you wanted?

We now need to get out into the world and do deals with them. We have a year to get something significant under our belt, not to mention that there is likely to be some sort of sensible deal with the EU if only to service their interests.

What I want is for most of our foodstuffs to come from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and so on. For Macron's arrogant fishing demands, I want him to be seriously stiffed. I still trust Germany to be sensible and its running dog France might well come to heel then.

Stop bleating.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

A part of a bigger economic unit, we were actually subordinated to the will of France and Germany. Is that what you wanted?

We now need to get out into the world and do deals with them. We have a year to get something significant under our belt, not to mention that there is likely to be some sort of sensible deal with the EU if only to service their interests.

What I want is for most of our foodstuffs to come from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and so on. For Macron's arrogant fishing demands, I want him to be seriously stiffed. I still trust Germany to be sensible and its running dog France might well come to heel then.

Stop bleating.

All seemed based on hope and wanting to 'stiff' everyone. That isn't a good basis for negotiating our future, particularly when we're in a weak position.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

A part of a bigger economic unit, we were actually subordinated to the will of France and Germany. Is that what you wanted?

We now need to get out into the world and do deals with them. We have a year to get something significant under our belt, not to mention that there is likely to be some sort of sensible deal with the EU if only to service their interests.

What I want is for most of our foodstuffs to come from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and so on. For Macron's arrogant fishing demands, I want him to be seriously stiffed. I still trust Germany to be sensible and its running dog France might well come to heel then.

Stop bleating.

South Africa - 6,000 miles away
Canada - 3,000 miles away
Australia - 9,500 miles away
NZ - 11,500 miles away

France - 20 miles
Germany - 300 miles
Italy - 750 miles
Spain - 800 miles

Not sure you’ve thought this fully through...

Originally Posted by Mr K

mostly freedom for our own Govt. to screw us over without fear of any check on them.

Well here is a fundamental and probably irreconcilable difference between you and leavers (and a lot of remainers I suspect). It is a very peculiar idea of sovereignty that assumes a national government of necessity requires an external check on its power. We do of course have internal checks - principally, Parliament, and judges who determine whether government is properly exercising the powers legislated for it. Then every 5 years or so, the whole electorate casts its judgement on Parliament.

All these are internal to the United Kingdom, which is a sovereign nation state that, in common with almost every other sovereign nation state on earth, is the final arbiter of what goes on in its own territory. Only within the bizarre experiment that is the EU has national sovereignty been so traduced (the process being obfuscated by nonsensical terms like “pooled sovereignty” in order to try to hide what’s been going on).

I believe in this country and I simply lack the self-loathing instincts required to believe we need rescuing from our own government by an association of nations, almost all of which have been governed by a dictator within living memory. People who genuinely need rescuing from their own governments live in places where torture, extrajudicial punishment and corruption is endemic, if not industrial in scale. Such places undergo violent revolution sooner or later. Here in the UK, nothing could be further from the truth, and it requires a severe lack of perspective to think otherwise.

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[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

South Africa - 6,000 miles away
Canada - 3,000 miles away
Australia - 9,500 miles away
NZ - 11,500 miles away

France - 20 miles
Germany - 300 miles
Italy - 750 miles
Spain - 800 miles

Not sure you’ve thought this fully through...

South Africa - 6,000 miles away Top class fruit & wine.
Canada - 3,000 miles away Top wheat, fish, beef.
Australia - 9,500 miles away Top fruit, beef, wine.
NZ - 11,500 miles away Top wine, lamb, butter,cheese.

France - 20 miles Macron.
Germany - 300 miles Possibly some hope there.
Italy - 750 miles Up schmitt creek, nix paddle.
Spain - 800 miles 25% youth unemployment when I last looked; Gibraltar.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

As part of a bigger economic unit we had protection and influence . . . .

Do the Italians and Greeks know about this? Maybe someone should let them know they're not screwed after all