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Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:24   #31
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
It’s an arbitrary line at 16 just as much as it is 18. People go on about “world wisdom” achieved by 16 and 17 year olds without any real evidence for it.

Why don’t we restrict the franchise to the well educated? Property owners? Landed gentry? They’re all obviously ridiculous ideas. However so is the notion that someone is so much wiser simply because they are older.
Don’t be silly. It’s an axiom that the older you are the greater wisdom you have gathered. From that flows the valid hypothesis that you have very much less wisdom at 16 or 18. Hence the debate about giving the vote to impressionable youth who cannot fully exercise sound political judgement.

I know what bits of the above you’ll pick out to challenge, but most people know that you are being uselessly provocative.

Shall we meet for a curry some day?
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:41   #32
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

One could equally argue that the media coverage of many issues indicates just how impressionable the entire electorate is - with minor issues inflated in the absence of evidence.

Even outwith the political sphere - the MMR vaccine is one example of the people being influenced against the evidence.
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Old 03-12-2019, 13:02   #33
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
Don’t be silly. It’s an axiom that the older you are the greater wisdom you have gathered. From that flows the valid hypothesis that you have very much less wisdom at 16 or 18. Hence the debate about giving the vote to impressionable youth who cannot fully exercise sound political judgement.

I know what bits of the above you’ll pick out to challenge, but most people know that you are being uselessly provocative.

Shall we meet for a curry some day?
It's only an axiom if it's true, otherwise it's circular reasoning...

I know quite a few older people who seem to get less wise as they get older, who refuse to entertain new ideas or thoughts or approaches, and are quite fixed and rigid in their thinking - wisdom is experience, knowledge, and good judgement, not just having lived longer.
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Old 03-12-2019, 13:46   #34
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

So, you can cho off at each end and you have the rump which matches the axiom.
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Old 03-12-2019, 17:08   #35
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
So, you can cho off at each end and you have the rump which matches the axiom.
Again, only if you take your initial premise as true (which I don't), and then accept your secondary premise (which, again, I don't).

I believe that wisdom comes from self-insight (the ability to understand that you don't know everything), and anything you do know could be proven incorrect by different information and understandings, self-awareness of yourself in the context of the era you live in and and your family history (as we are all shaped by our experiences), understanding that priorities and values(including your own) are not absolute, and an awareness of life’s ambiguities.

tl:dr - we don't know everything, we should realise we don't know everything, we should try to always learn more, and try not to think in absolutes.

ymmv
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Old 03-12-2019, 19:38   #36
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

You should be much more suspicious of someone who thinks they have everything figured out than those who openly admit ignorance.

(I, of course, do know everything but that's a coincidence)
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Old 03-12-2019, 19:46   #37
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Again, only if you take your initial premise as true (which I don't), and then accept your secondary premise (which, again, I don't).

I believe that wisdom comes from self-insight (the ability to understand that you don't know everything), and anything you do know could be proven incorrect by different information and understandings, self-awareness of yourself in the context of the era you live in and and your family history (as we are all shaped by our experiences), understanding that priorities and values(including your own) are not absolute, and an awareness of life’s ambiguities.

tl:dr - we don't know everything, we should realise we don't know everything, we should try to always learn more, and try not to think in absolutes.

ymmv
.... and there we have it: wisdom.
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Old 03-12-2019, 20:19   #38
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
You should be much more suspicious of someone who thinks they have everything figured out than those who openly admit ignorance.

(I, of course, do know everything but that's a coincidence)
“Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein
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Old 03-12-2019, 23:00   #39
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

Well it wasn’t so long ago they were down ‘pit so why not?
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:20   #40
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Well it wasn’t so long ago they were down ‘pit so why not?
At the age of 7 in some cases until later it became illegal for a boy under 12 to work down a mine.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:00   #41
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
At the age of 7 in some cases until later it became illegal for a boy under 12 to work down a mine.
Just as well jfman wasn't around then as he would have been campaigning for 7-year-olds to have the vote!
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:05   #42
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Just as well jfman wasn't around then as he would have been campaigning for 7-year-olds to have the vote!
l somehow doubt it OB.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:41   #43
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
At the age of 7 in some cases until later it became illegal for a boy under 12 to work down a mine.
Once Arthur Scargill got involved no one was actually working down the mines
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Old 04-12-2019, 23:33   #44
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

16 year olds can be easily influenced as well
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Old 05-12-2019, 22:00   #45
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Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote

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Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
16 year olds can be easily influenced as well
So can 65 year olds.
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