Brexit (Old)

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Angua

Yet we are governed by a party that got less support than remain did in the referendum.

Democracy, shamocracy.

...Who are trying to implement the will of the electorate despite the difficulties presented by the lack of a majority in the House of Commons.

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I suspect you won't find many left-leaning people on a pay-TV forum and I'm no exception to that rule!


Regarding fishing, it makes up less than 0.5% of the country's GDP so in terms of importance other industries are far more important to the country no matter how many times you borrow Diane Abbott's magic calculator! Put it another way, there's about 11,000 people employed in the UK fishing industry compared to 856,000 in the wider automotive sector. Leaving the EU is a threat to this important industry and our tax base as once jobs leave, they don't tend to come back. Greg Clark seems to be belatedly waking up to the facts.

On a large council estate a few miles from where I live, a great many homes are adorned with a satellite dish. Things aren't always as simple as they seem.

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Originally Posted by Angua

With you on this.

Brexit has been an absolute shambles from the start. I just wish the Tory party MPs would split, rather than do as they are doing, dragging the whole of the UK into their marital problems.

You may criticise, but I suspect your solution to this referendum vote would cause riots on the streets!

The electorate voted for Brexit and that is what the Government is attempting to deliver, despite the constant obstructions of the Labour Party, who have no appreciation of how flawed their current position is on Brexit and who seem to change their policy direction like the wind.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

Yet we are governed by a party that got less support than remain did in the referendum.

Democracy, shamocracy.

The GE has nothing to do with the Referendum result which was to leave the EU.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It is whinging. Even the guvmin shambles doesn’t invalidate the Referendum. The EU were never going to reach agreement with us except on their terms. Varoufakis made that clear pretty much on day 1 and we would be where we are now had we heeded him - albeit with better preparation, perhaps.

Thwarting a democratic vote or supporting that cause is a disgrace.

People have been discussing our ties with Europe forever and this will not cease, particularly when the evidence shows the country taking a short-term and long-term hit. Currently a hit of £500m per week and rising! Not an issue if you're one of the global financial elite making a killing on speculation or a country like Russia that benefits from distracting the West from other matters like Ukraine and Syria but a concern for the rest of us trying to earn an honest crust.
If you prefer the kind of environment where people have to pretend such things aren't happening, then maybe the leafy settings of Venezuela or North Korea would be more to your taste.

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY

On a large council estate a few miles from where I live, a great many homes are adorned with a satellite dish. Things aren't always as simple as they seem.

Just because people live on a large council estate doesn't mean they're left-leaning. Things aren't always as simple as they seem.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

People have been discussing our ties with Europe forever and this will not cease, particularly when the evidence shows the country taking a short-term and long-term hit. Currently a hit of £500m per week and rising! Not an issue if you're one of the global financial elite making a killing on speculation or a country like Russia that benefits from distracting the West from other matters like Ukraine and Syria but a concern for the rest of us trying to earn an honest crust.
If you prefer the kind of environment where people have to pretend such things aren't happening, then maybe the leafy settings of Venezuela or North Korea would be more to your taste.

---------- Post added at 12:44 ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 ----------


<snip>

The Corbyn preferred settings of Venezuela are nothing to do with this. The Referendum said “Leave” and the 52% (a majority under our democratic system) understood that The perils forecast in the guvmin’s document might/would occur but nevertheless decided that they wanted to leave.

The trouble with most of the Remainers in this thread is that they won’t debate German hegemony, French skewing of the EU to their inefficient work practices, Juncker’s grand desire for Brussels control and soon. You won’t debate the shackles we’re under. All you are interested in is the economy and you want that to remain under those shackles. Terrible.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The Corbyn preferred settings of Venezuela are nothing to do with this. The Referendum said “Leave” and the 52% (a majority under our democratic system) understood that The perils forecast in the guvmin’s document might/would occur but nevertheless decided that they wanted to leave.

The trouble with most of the Remainers in this thread is that they won’t debate German hegemony, French skewing of the EU to their inefficient work practices, Juncker’s grand desire for Brussels control and soon. You won’t debate the shackles we’re under. All you are interested in is the economy and you want that to remain under those shackles. Terrible.

People keep on debating those points with you and then a few posts later on you'll say that no one will debate them with you.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

People keep on debating those points with you and then a few posts later on you'll say that no one will debate them with you.

They are not properly debated. At best they are skirted around.

Can we assume that you are happy with French manipulation of the CAP so that it suits them? You’ll prolly deny it has happened and demand evidence.

Can we assume that you are happy with Germany’s illegal 8% surplus and their determination to keep things that way at the expense of everyone else?

Can we assume that you are happy with Germany’s shenanigans trying to ensure that the next Juncker is a German? I (sarcastically) wonder why that might be.

Can we assume that you are happy with Varadka’s perfidious behaviour towards us? The country that instantly lent them £7 billion when the skids were under them in 2008?

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The Corbyn preferred settings of Venezuela are nothing to do with this. The Referendum said “Leave” and the 52% (a majority under our democratic system) understood that The perils forecast in the guvmin’s document might/would occur but nevertheless decided that they wanted to leave.

The trouble with most of the Remainers in this thread is that they won’t debate German hegemony, French skewing of the EU to their inefficient work practices, Juncker’s grand desire for Brussels control and soon. You won’t debate the shackles we’re under. All you are interested in is the economy and you want that to remain under those shackles. Terrible.

Possibly with regard to the German hegemony thing because you are fixated on it. They successfully reintegrated East Germany. They have an electoral system that can make their politicians take note and cooperate.

Yes the French skew things to protect farmers, but maybe Macron is doing something to scupper that. It is after all Frances problem to solve, not the EU's.

Too many leavers seem to want to blame the EU for all our problems, when many of the solutions have always been in the hands of the UK government.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

Possibly with regard to the German hegemony thing because you are fixated on it. They successfully reintegrated East Germany. They have an electoral system that can make their politicians take note and cooperate.

Yes the French skew things to protect farmers, but maybe Macron is doing something to scupper that. It is after all Frances problem to solve, not the EU's.

Too many leavers seem to want to blame the EU for all our problems, when many of the solutions have always been in the hands of the UK government.

As I said, skirting round the issues.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

They are not properly debated. At best they are skirted around.

Can we assume that you are happy with French manipulation of the CAP so that it suits them? You’ll prolly deny it has happened and demand evidence.

Can we assume that you are happy with Germany’s illegal 8% surplus and their determination to keep things that way at the expense of everyone else?

Can we assume that you are happy with Germany’s shenanigans trying to ensure that the next Juncker is a German? I (sarcastically) wonder why that might be.

Can we assume that you are happy with Varadka’s perfidious behaviour towards us? The country that instantly lent them £7 billion when the skids were under them in 2008?

Firstly, if anyone wants to make a case for anything then having evidence to back up that case will make it stronger and persuade people to your point of view. Only recently, you stated that the UK was 100% self-sufficient in meat without any evidence to support this view. The actual figure was 80% as someone corrected you. So some will be reading your posturings with a pinch of salt, unfair as that may seem to you.

Like Churchill, I prefer to be inside the tent and pissing out than outside the tent and pissing in. No system is perfect but the EU is our biggest market and to trade with them in the future, our standards will have to match theirs or they won't accept our goods. And we won't be able to influence those standards; it will be your "chums" in Paris, Madrid and Berlin who will do that. So what do we actually gain? Control of our borders? We have that already if we bothered to enforce the rights we have?

As for trade deals, the EU has already negotiated rafts of them with more on the way. Nothing is stopping us from selling outside the Single Market as an EU Member State. Indeed, there is a huge advantage to chasing international opportunities from a home market of 350m people than just 65m people. Just ask China! Instead, the UK will have shot itself in the foot before it starts any international race, by shrinking its domestic market from 350m to 65m people!

Lastly, does anyone seriously believe it’s easier to negotiate trade deals as 3% of the world economy v now as 30%? And does anyone have any clue how long FTAs take to negotiate in reality v what Liam Fox told us?

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As I said, skirting round the issues.

Angua has succinctly and eloquently responded to your points. I believe Damien tackled them too in some depth. Because you've failed to win people over to your way of thinking doesn't mean that they've not answered them.

[Sephiroth]

From that, We can all see that you are content with the skewing and hegemonist gets that I have described. 52% of the UK disagrees with you.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

From that, We can all see that you are content with the skewing and hegemonist gets that I have described. 52% of the UK disagrees with you.

Not only did you borrow Diane Abbot's calculator for your erroneous meat calculations, you seem to have borrowed her logical thinking processes as well!
I just feel it's better being in a more prosperous country and fighting your corner in the EU rather than having to follow their standards as a smaller less well-off country anyway.
I get and respect that you don't agree on this. But if you genuinely want people to debate with you, you need to give them an article or something to debate about, not just saying terrible this country, terrible that country etc.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

From that, We can all see that you are content with the skewing and hegemonist gets that I have described. 52% of the UK disagrees with you.

I doubt the majority of the 52% had a thought in their head for your hegemony fixation. Indeed Mr A is a huge fan of Germany and sees much they do that he wishes we did, yet he voted leave.

But if it's the will of the people, and if posters are sure the majority still believe that Leaving is best, wouldn't a second referendum reflect this, and shut up all those who say that voters have changed their minds about leaving.

A resounding majority, now that there has been more details about what leaving means, surely must be a boon to the Leave camp - no one could argue that people weren't making an informed choice.

[heero_yuy]

Quote from Hugh:


But if it's the will of the people, and if posters are sure the majority still believe that Leaving is best, wouldn't a second referendum reflect this, and shut up all those who say that voters have changed their minds about leaving.

A resounding majority, now that there has been more details about what leaving means, surely must be boon to the Leave camp - no one could argue that people weren't making an informed choice.

If it were a bi-polar question, given that remain has already been dismissed, then it's Maybot's compromise or actually really leave.

The remoaners want a tri-polar question in the hope that they can split the leave voters over real leave or the Maybot fudge.

Then claim we wanted to stay after all.

And you're falling for it.

Just make it leave or stay.