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Russia has invaded Ukraine
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Old 29-07-2023, 02:39   #2566
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Hom3r View Post
Personally all Russian athletes (and many of the pro Russian) should be banned from all sports.
For what reason ?
Do we ban all other athletes in countries that are at war with other countries ?
They are not even competing as Russians (or Belarusians) but forced to be Neutrals.
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Old 29-07-2023, 03:27   #2567
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Paul View Post
For what reason ?
Do we ban all other athletes in countries that are at war with other countries ?
They are not even competing as Russians (or Belarusians) but forced to be Neutrals.
I completely agree.

If we are going to pretend itís not a proxy war between NATO and Russia we should at least allow individuals to compete with restrictions.

If Ukrainians donít want to play by the rules (that includes respecting opponents) then they should withdraw. Itís tedious nonsense.
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Old 29-07-2023, 09:32   #2568
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
If Ukrainians donít want to play by the rules (that includes respecting opponents) then they should withdraw. Itís tedious nonsense.
The reason they don't shake hands is because they don't want the photos used for Russian propaganda. They don't want anything to support the Russian Government's narrative that the people of Ukraine support Russia.

The Ukrainian did offer to touch tap blades which was the protocol during COVID apparently and has been used occasionally since. The Russian refused trying to insist on the handshake and then refused to leave during a 45-minute meltdown. She was trying to get the Ukrainian disqualified, her Instagram was full of stuff promoting the Russian war so she knew what she was doing. I have no sympathy for her.

I don't think Russian and Belarusian athletes should be banned but it becomes trickier if they're using the sports to promote the war and provoke their Ukrainian opponents.

You compare that to tennis where the Russian and Belarusian players respect their opponent's decision not to shake hands and instead, the players nod to each other.
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Old 29-07-2023, 13:06   #2569
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I completely agree.

If we are going to pretend itís not a proxy war between NATO and Russia we should at least allow individuals to compete with restrictions.

If Ukrainians donít want to play by the rules (that includes respecting opponents) then they should withdraw. Itís tedious nonsense.
You're wrong there, for the reasons that Damien has given.
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Old 29-07-2023, 13:52   #2570
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

I fail to see the propaganda value of a Russian in defeat shaking hands with their Ukrainian victor. The basic minimum level of courtesy across a range of sports.
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Old 29-07-2023, 14:04   #2571
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I fail to see the propaganda value of a Russian in defeat shaking hands with their Ukrainian victor. The basic minimum level of courtesy across a range of sports.
Because it can be used to promote the idea that Ukrainians and Russians are basically the same people, which is the philosophical justification for the war in Russia, regardless of whatever Russian propaganda you might have swallowed about them wanting to take on Nato.
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Old 29-07-2023, 14:10   #2572
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Because it can be used to promote the idea that Ukrainians and Russians are basically the same people, which is the philosophical justification for the war in Russia, regardless of whatever Russian propaganda you might have swallowed about them wanting to take on Nato.
It seems somewhat far fetched to suggest that Russians sit watching television and think that every time a Russian shakes hands in an essentially mandatory scenario that the other nationality or ethnicity is somehow Russia aligned.

The suggestion that it’s to ostracise or demonise Russian people at an individual level is much, much more credible.
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Old 29-07-2023, 16:09   #2573
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Common sense has prevailed.

Quote:
Disqualified Ukrainian fencer Kharlan reinstated, will have Paris Olympics place.

The International Fencing Federation announced on July 28 it was reinstating Ukrainian fencer Olga Kharlan, allowing her to take part in the team competition at the world championships in Italy.

Emmanuel Katsiadakis, the President of the FIE, said the decision had been taken "after consultation with the International Olympic Committee (IOC)."
Source Kyiv Independant tweet.
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Old 29-07-2023, 17:32   #2574
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by pip08456 View Post
Common sense has prevailed.
Good news, however its not been so good for the Ukranian cricket team :-

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In July 2021, the Ukraine Cricket Federation began the process to become an Associate member of the ICC,but this was put on hold following the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.A year later, the Ukraine Cricket Federation said it was ready to become an Associate member at the ICC's next board meeting.
Give 10 years they'll be beating us as well as Russia...
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Old 29-07-2023, 20:19   #2575
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
It seems somewhat far fetched to suggest that Russians sit watching television and think that every time a Russian shakes hands in an essentially mandatory scenario that the other nationality or ethnicity is somehow Russia aligned.

The suggestion that it’s to ostracise or demonise Russian people at an individual level is much, much more credible.
I think you have nothing credible to say about the personal feelings of any Ukrainian towards any Russian unless you somehow gain access to the source of those feelings. As you’re unlikely to have lost anyone as a result of having your homeland invaded, nor are you likely to have to have worked with (or played sport against) someone whose brother fights with the invading army, or whose social media accounts loudly support the invasion, it’s unlikely you will ever have any credible moral authority to suggest any Ukrainian should behave in any particular way towards any Russian. Your only viable alternative is an intellectual understanding, but that would require you to listen to what Ukrainians are saying about themselves and their struggle which you seem oddly unwilling to do.

The rift between those two peoples is going to take generations to repair. A passing acquaintance with our own history and especially attitudes towards Germans for decades after WW2 would be instructive here. For now, if a Ukrainian says it’s too painful, then they are the oppressed and that’s their privilege. We need do no more than believe them.

Everything isn’t about great power politics all the time. But if you absolutely insist on seeing it as an aspect of grand strategy then no, it isn’t more likely that there’s a campaign on to demonise Russians. There’s no need; they’re doing that fine all by themselves. The Ukrainians know the Russians better than anyone. If they think it’s worthwhile denying Russian TV useful images for internal propaganda (or, indeed, propaganda in the Global South where there’s only lukewarm ambivalence towards the whole affair) … then again, our best course of action is to believe them.

Not for the first time, I observe that your inability to see this through anything other than a Great Powers lens leads you to the deny agency of Ukraine and Ukrainians to fight for their national survival in any way they see fit.
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Old 29-07-2023, 20:26   #2576
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Because it can be used to promote the idea that Ukrainians and Russians are basically the same people, which is the philosophical justification for the war in Russia, regardless of whatever Russian propaganda you might have swallowed about them wanting to take on Nato.
Sport should be separated from politics. No participant in a sport should be assumed to be supportive of the government of the country they represent.

I might be generalising a little, but I doubt that many England footballers support their Conservative government.

Think about it.
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Old 29-07-2023, 20:30   #2577
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Sport should be separated from politics. No participant in a sport should be assumed to be supportive of the government of the country they represent.

I might be generalising a little, but I doubt that many England footballers support their Conservative government.

Think about it.
I wish you would.

Last time I looked the Conservative government hadn’t sent our army on an imperial war of conquest across the Irish republic and our soldiers weren’t torturing civilians, raping teenagers or burgling private homes as they went.

Honestly, I’ve seen some boneheaded attempts at moral equivalence but you’re on another level.
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Old 29-07-2023, 20:42   #2578
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I wish you would.

Last time I looked the Conservative government hadn’t sent our army on an imperial war of conquest across the Irish republic and our soldiers weren’t torturing civilians, raping teenagers or burgling private homes as they went.

Honestly, I’ve seen some boneheaded attempts at moral equivalence but you’re on another level.
I am not suggesting that a refusal to shake hands should incur a penalty. I’m saying that sport and politics should be kept separate.

And incidentally, I notice with some incredulity that you describe people who disagree with you as ‘bone-headed’. No-one on this Earth is right all the time, and that includes you. And this is a discussion forum.

I plead guilty to using a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence twice in one paragraph. There, I’ve said it for you.
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Old 29-07-2023, 20:51   #2579
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
I am not suggesting that a refusal to shake hands should incur a penalty. Iím saying that sport and politics should be kept separate.
That's a thing people say but it's not realistic. Everything can be political. That's why countries bid for World Cup and Olympics, it's why Saudi Arabia purchased Newcastle, and why Abramovich purchased Chelsea then had to sell them.
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Old 30-07-2023, 12:45   #2580
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Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I think you have nothing credible to say about the personal feelings of any Ukrainian towards any Russian unless you somehow gain access to the source of those feelings. As you’re unlikely to have lost anyone as a result of having your homeland invaded, nor are you likely to have to have worked with (or played sport against) someone whose brother fights with the invading army, or whose social media accounts loudly support the invasion, it’s unlikely you will ever have any credible moral authority to suggest any Ukrainian should behave in any particular way towards any Russian. Your only viable alternative is an intellectual understanding, but that would require you to listen to what Ukrainians are saying about themselves and their struggle which you seem oddly unwilling to do.

The rift between those two peoples is going to take generations to repair. A passing acquaintance with our own history and especially attitudes towards Germans for decades after WW2 would be instructive here. For now, if a Ukrainian says it’s too painful, then they are the oppressed and that’s their privilege. We need do no more than believe them.

Everything isn’t about great power politics all the time. But if you absolutely insist on seeing it as an aspect of grand strategy then no, it isn’t more likely that there’s a campaign on to demonise Russians. There’s no need; they’re doing that fine all by themselves. The Ukrainians know the Russians better than anyone. If they think it’s worthwhile denying Russian TV useful images for internal propaganda (or, indeed, propaganda in the Global South where there’s only lukewarm ambivalence towards the whole affair) … then again, our best course of action is to believe them.

Not for the first time, I observe that your inability to see this through anything other than a Great Powers lens leads you to the deny agency of Ukraine and Ukrainians to fight for their national survival in any way they see fit.
This would all of course have some meaning if Ukrainians weren’t giving any respect or acknowledgment to their Russian opponents. However they are between tennis and fencing - a nod, a thumbs up, touching swords all take place. The handshake is a specific form of snub for Ukraine’s own propaganda. Every event descends into some farcical discussion of it. Fans at Wimbledon, ignorant of what’s actually happening, boo Russians for going along with the requests of their opponents.

The irony of dismissing the Global South in one sentence and accusing me of having a “Great Powers” lens in the next is quite something. Presumably the only people allowed an opinion are those who support the Zelensky regime (but not opposition parties, or trade unions of course they’re banned), and the perfectly aligned NATO position.

I’m quite looking forward to see which way you break when inevitably the USA pulls the plug on fighting for every inch and tells Zelensky to get his pen out. That could truly demonstrate who has a Great Powers lens. The hedge funds will want to make bank out the reconstruction efforts sooner rather than later, and Biden probably doesn’t want it hanging over the 2024 election.
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