Traffic Shaping

[Mystical]

Originally Posted by Fawkes

That connection is capable of 10MB download and 512k upload, subject to a fair use policy of 75GB per month.

It's an "up to 10mb" service not a dedicated 10mb service

[Graham M]

Originally Posted by trebor

could this traffic shaping thing be having an adverse effect on my general internet connection over the last couple of months. since this topic started my connection has been lost so many times I've lost count .all the lights go out on the modem for a few minutes up to a few hours. in the evenings the connection is very poor lots of slow pages, pages not found and dropped gaming connections.

Erm no. Traffic shaping will NOT affect anything like your Modem, if you're having these problems, I suggest you contact Tech Support.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by Fawkes

My electricity supplier doesn't care if I'm watch TV or mowing the lawn. They charge for what I use.

My water supply is unmetered, but even if it wasn't the water company wouldn't monitor if I was taking baths or showers.

I want an ISP that can provide me with a connection to the internet, whatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s so hard about that?

If NTL needs to change its business model or pricing to remain profitable so be it. But currently I pay for a connection. That connection is capable of 10MB download and 512k upload, subject to a fair use policy of 75GB per month.
NTL need to inform me if that changes.

Your electricity company may charge you different rates for daytime and nightime usage. This is a kind of traffic shaping designed to tempt you to move some of your consumption to offpeak hours.

Your water company may ban the use of hosepipes and other things during periods of low water reserves.

Your telephone company may charge you more for use during peak periods.

Traffic shaping goes on in many walks of life. Often this is done by differential charging which makes you think twice about when you use something.

The big problem with the internet is that some users want the fastest speeds with the lowest latency at a cheaper price than anyone else charges. This is something that no ISP can offer. As internet speeds get faster and faster something has to give. Maximum speeds will become harder to achieve. To give a reasonable level of service at a reasonable price to the majority of customers every ISP will have to take some action which will upset some of its customers. Users who expect an unlimited service with constant ability to achieve the maximum speed may get what they want for a short period of time after they have jumped ship from an ISP who cannot provide it but will soon find themselves looking elsewhere when their new ISP fails to deliver what they want.

[Fawkes]

Originally Posted by Mystical

It's an "up to 10mb" service not a dedicated 10mb service

Well I did say capable

"made so as to be able to: a car capable of doing 90 miles an hour

As my dictionary puts it.

I just feel ISPs need to be clearer and more transparent about their products and that the ISP should only be the carrier and not dictate peopleââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s usage beyond a fair use policy.

Originally Posted by ian@huth

every ISP will have to take some action which will upset some of its customers. Users who expect an unlimited service with constant ability to achieve the maximum speed may get what they want for a short period of time after they have jumped ship from an ISP who cannot provide it but will soon find themselves looking elsewhere when their new ISP fails to deliver what they want.

Traffic shaping is here to stay yes. But My ISP should have the guts to admit they are doing it instead of releasing the information on a friday night and hope noone see's it.


On the point of jumping ship and times that speeds should be available.

I have been a customer of cable for more than 6 years and have been an employee of cable for over 11 years. However they have managed in the last 6 months to lose all of my custom. Why you might ask.

A. Not supplying the services i require. When other companies have had those services for years.

B. NOT telling me they are or have changed my level of service and hoping i will not notice "that was the final straw BTW"

C. I do not expect to achieve full speed on my broadband at all times and in fact do not make heavy demands on it during peak time and try not to use p2p software that fills the upstream. what i do ask and expect is.At least 75% of my speed on any given time. Check another thread showing my speeds over the last month that showed speeds less than 20% of my speed on a Sunday morning . My isp to clearly inform me of changes to my service which would in fact change the above.

And finally when i do phone up to report a fault i do not expect a its not us gov check your pc for Spyware, virus,cold,flu or anything else they can blame instead of admitting that they might have a problem.

However i am glad to say that will not be my problem soon

[Fawkes]

Originally Posted by ian@huth

Traffic shaping goes on in many walks of life. Often this is done by differential charging which makes you think twice about when you use something.

The big problem with the internet is that some users want the fastest speeds with the lowest latency at a cheaper price than anyone else charges. This is something that no ISP can offer. As internet speeds get faster and faster something has to give. Maximum speeds will become harder to achieve. To give a reasonable level of service at a reasonable price to the majority of customers every ISP will have to take some action which will upset some of its customers. Users who expect an unlimited service with constant ability to achieve the maximum speed may get what they want for a short period of time after they have jumped ship from an ISP who cannot provide it but will soon find themselves looking elsewhere when their new ISP fails to deliver what they want.

Thats true but the phone companies are open about it, users know what their paying for. They don't cut you off 30 minutes into a call, or interrupt your call if its just chit chat in favour of someone making and important business call.

[JonathanLH]

Originally Posted by Fawkes

Ok, I understand that NTL will only be looking at the protocols and ports its users are using and that this is done on a machine level. But Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢m still concerned about how this general data is used. IF it is only used to prioritise time sensitive traffic like VoIP than thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s fine. But if it is used in the way I described in a previous post:

• restrict traffic to destination X over destination Y because NTL has some deal with Y.
  

etc

Already done, it's called peering and transit.

[Fawkes]

Originally Posted by JonathanLH

Already done, it's called peering and transit.

Peering is about the route not the destination.

[JonathanLH]

i know, but the OP said "restrict traffic to destination X over destination Y because NTL has some deal with Y", NTL will probs send some data over a particular crappy peering/transit link to slow it down (restrict), rather than on their "ultra speedy" high priced link.

[DVS]

Originally Posted by Ignition

I guess you aren't a big fan of the fact ntl are legally obliged to be able to monitor your phone calls at any time.

I have no problem with them being legally obliged to be able to monitor my phone. I'd have a serious problem if they routinuely did with no legal compulsion.

Originally Posted by Ignition

It's bull on zero levels, your IP traffic isn't protected by any legal statute and no record is made of the contents of the packets merely the protocol being used.

That hits the nail on the head and is I believe a failure with the legal system. I also wonder wether existing statutes could come into play with the likes of VOIP traffic? I'm no lawyer so I'll leave that to the legal beagles but there is a definite link between PTSN statutes and data networks that carry VOIP (IMO).

Originally Posted by Ignition

Think outside of the OSI 7 layer model and you're there. The traffic shaping gear will know you were using Bittorrent, it won't have stored which torrent you were using. To gain knowledge of exactly which torrent you are downloading is to assume legal responsibility for your behaviour (being aware of exactly what a customer is doing suggests responsibility for it) and puts ntl at legal risk.

That's all fine, but the fact that they know, or at least, look at what I'm doing is an invasion of my privacy.

Originally Posted by Ignition

I hope this in some small way reassures. Yes ntl will be able to tell that you were using Bittorrent, VoIP, http, etc, however the actual contents of those sessons remains a mystery.

Unfortunately there's no reassurance in what's been said. I'm not trying to be argumentative but the above in it's own right is an invasion of my privacy. Why the hell should NTL know that I'm using FTP or HTTP or NTTP etc etc. That is none of their business. I pay for a data connection not a data connection that looks at what I'm using it for and decides wether to slow down my traffic flow.

Originally Posted by Ignition

The only reason for the packet inspection is because a layer 4 lookup on the protocols is trivial to avoid.

Very true but it is becoming increasingly possible to 'hide' traffic through encryption. so even Layer 7 shaping is ineffectual. Whose betting that over time we will see all encrytped, or non identifiable traffic, shaped?

[etccarmageddon]

Originally Posted by ian@huth

...As internet speeds get faster and faster something has to give....

or... as lack of investment continues and sending technical support to a call centre in Indian, eventually some customers will have to give up.

[Chrysalis]

I dont know the contracts ntl have regarding their peering but there is some flaws to the shaping rules mrben mentioned if they accurate and I understand it right.

If the peering is on the basis that equal traffic is going both directions and ntl start shaping only outbound traffic that could breach the contract.

If ntl pay fully for the peering and as such any traffic going over it is probably at ntl's discretion and they can shape as they please.

If the shaping is only for traffic from ntl to other isps presumably meaning upload traffic this will have no affect to the current downstream congestion which is clear on their network.

Also all the isps that I know of that use shaping are shaping downstream traffic so I just cant believe this is true, I think they will shape on type of traffic regardless of which way its going and the only traffic that will probably remain truly unshaped is VOIP services charged for by ntl themselves and traffic that an external isp may have paid ntl a premium for to have it unshaped (an example maybe bbc pay ntl to have their imp prioritised.)

[Simply Gray]

Originally Posted by Ignition

Don't forget if you can do it to switch the TV off entirely, will give you the other 2Mbps you aren't getting from your internet

I get about 940kB/s on Homechoice

Thanks Ignition. I'll try it.

Must admit I had a problem this morning with the box and had to phone customer service. A very helpful chap sorted it out very quickly. I* was surprised to receive an unsolicited call from him 15 minutes later, when he told me he had been checking my line and I had had a few noise problems yesterday. Told me he was fixing it as we spoke and not to worry if my TV froze for about 30 sec and the box rebooted. I always wondered what customer service was and now I know!

[Stuart]

Right, I have just moved all posts regarding mzielonka's 2 Meg connection to http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=45457 .

Please discuss that subject in that thread. This thread is for talk about NTL's traffic shaping,

[Chrysalis]

or in extreme circumstances, where network congestion leads to potential denial of service for some customers, to reduce bandwidth allocations at an individual or a network level

that part is scary, it seems to indicate its ok to have that kind of congestion and shaping is the necessary fix. This is what I dont like, if congestion is emulating a DOS before shaping then questions need to be asked.

Also heavy users are never going to cause that kind of congestion only overselling can, we have figures coming from isps where they say under %3 are heavy users and the other 97% are normal so tell me how %3 users can cause congestion to the level where it feels like a denial of service.