Brexit discussion

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

Interesting question raised on last night's Question Time "is there a difference between a brexiteer and a remainer who thinks that the referendum decision should be upheld".

As regards those Brexiteers and Remainers in the Cabinet arguing over one of two "magical thinking" solutions to the customs union, one Tweeter described it very nicely when they said it is as if the UK cabinet is in an Italian restaurant arguing about whether to order the vindaloo or the jalfrezi.

[RichardCoulter]

My fear is that we will end up still being in the EU in all but name and still paying out money to them, yet have no voting rights.

It's the worst of the two options of changing our minds and deciding to stay in or making a clean break.

I used to be all for the EU, but have not been happy with them for a good few years now for many of the reasons already covered. My main gripes are free movement of people, meaning that the countries effectively have no control over their borders and us being expected to bail out other countries who haven't sorted out their finances whilst we have been subject to austerity.

I think that there are good and bad things that would come out of staying in or leaving, but what we are likely to end up with is the worst of both options.

I know that either decision will annoy about 50% of the electorate, but this wouldn't please remainders or brexiteers. As the old saying goes, he who stands in the middle of the road gets mown down.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

My fear is that we will end up still being in the EU in all but name and still paying out money to %, yet have no voting rights.

It's the worst of the two options of changing our minds and deciding to stay in or making a clean break.

I used to be all for the EU, but have not been happy with them for a good few years now for many of the reasons already covered. My main gripes are free movement of people, meaning that the countries effectively have no control over their borders and us being expected to bail out other countries who haven't sorted out their finances whilst we have been subject to austerity.

I think that there are good and bad things that would come out of staying in or leaving, but what we are likely to end up with is the worst of both options.

I know that either decision will annoy about 50% of the electorate, but this wouldn't please remainders or brexiteers. As the old saying goes, he who stands in the middle of the road gets mown down.

That's not going to happen. There is no point leaving the EU in economic terms unless we can forge our own trade deals.

I, too, voted for joining the Common Market back in the day, but the Europeans made a complete hash of it and instead of federalising and democratising it, they have created an unelected bureaucracy which it seems to me could end up being something uncomfortably similar to a Communist state.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

they have created an unelected bureaucracy which it seems to me could end up being something uncomfortably similar to a Communist state.

John has 6 apples, Mary has 3 oranges, Alan has 1 pear.
Jim, Peter and Nancy have nothing, so the fruit is shared among all 6

Eventually John, Mary and Alan decide they can't be bothered to work hard in order to end up with the same as those who don't . . so stop picking fruit.

Nobody has anything.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

That's not going to happen. There is no point leaving the EU in economic terms unless we can forge our own trade deals.

I, too, voted for joining the Common Market back in the day, but the Europeans made a complete hash of it and instead of federalising and democratising it, they have created an unelected bureaucracy which it seems to me could end up being something uncomfortably similar to a Communist state.

Unelected apart from the European Parliament and European Council. The third arm, the commission is the civil service but it’s leadership is elected by the parliament (elected by us) and the council (heads of state and so elected by us)

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Unelected apart from the European Parliament and European Council. The third arm, the commission is the civil service but it’s leadership is elected by the parliament (elected by us) and the council (heads of state and so elected by us)

A somewhat naïve view, for what my opinion is worth.

The Brits look like the Europeans but don't think like them; sort of. So their elected MEPs are able to gang up against ours (and a few like minded others).

Not only that, it's no wonder that the MEP majority are all for federal Europe and no nation states. If that happens, their Parliament would trump everyone else's. That's grabbing power and more than likely against the democratic wishes of ordinary folk.

The UK was fortunate enough to have held a referendum at which true democracy took place.

As for the Eurpean Council, that is made up of Prime Ministers/Presidents who want to keep their seat at the top table (Cameron was one of those). Snouts, trough and power concentration come to mind. Not what we want from our politicians.

The EU is a politically corrupt institution.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

A somewhat naïve view, for what my opinion is worth.

The Brits look like the Europeans but don't think like them; sort of. So their elected MEPs are able to gang up against ours (and a few like minded others).

Not only that, it's no wonder that the MEP majority are all for federal Europe and no nation states. If that happens, their Parliament would trump everyone else's. That's grabbing power and more than likely against the democratic wishes of ordinary folk.

The UK was fortunate enough to have held a referendum at which true democracy took place.

As for the Eurpean Council, that is made up of Prime Ministers/Presidents who want to keep their seat at the top table (Cameron was one of those). Snouts, trough and power concentration come to mind. Not what we want from our politicians.

The EU is a politically corrupt institution.

What I said wasn’t an opinion so I am not sure what was naive about what I posted. MEPs are elected (sort of under the d’Hondt proportional representation system) If the electorate is politically engaged then they have the option to not vote for parties that do not reflect their interests or indeed stand themselves if no one does. That opportunity comes up every 5 years, just like our parliament.

To say the EU is not democratic is not true if the voting population are engaged in the process. If they or we are not, then that’s not the EUs fault surely.

If the results of the election don’t go the way we want, as long as the result is fair, it’s still democratic isn’t it?

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Carth

John has 6 apples, Mary has 3 oranges, Alan has 1 pear.
Jim, Peter and Nancy have nothing, so the fruit is shared among all 6

Eventually John, Mary and Alan decide they can't be bothered to work hard in order to end up with the same as those who don't . . so stop picking fruit.

Nobody has anything.

I believe that effort and risk should equal reward, but also think that those unable to work for good reason should be helped by those more fortunate in this country. By that I don't see why we should have to bail out other countries who haven't got their affairs in order, whilst we have been subject to austerity measures.

[RichardCoulter]

We played a major role in developing this EU satellite, but if we leave the EU is threatening to stop us using it for GPS, mobile phones, military use etc.

Our Government has said that they'll create their own if this threat is carried out, but it's going to cost us a lot more money if we do.

From a purely financial point of view, this is a downside to leaving:

https://www.politico.eu/article/brex...with-brussels/

[heero_yuy]

This is really academic as us and the rest of the world use the USA GPS at the moment. It was really the EU vanity project and we're leaving it. The existing GPS continues as it always has.

TBQH I'd put more faith in a system run by the US military than a system run by some EU incompetency.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

What I said wasn’t an opinion so I am not sure what was naive about what I posted. MEPs are elected (sort of under the d’Hondt proportional representation system) If the electorate is politically engaged then they have the option to not vote for parties that do not reflect their interests or indeed stand themselves if no one does. That opportunity comes up every 5 years, just like our parliament.

To say the EU is not democratic is not true if the voting population are engaged in the process. If they or we are not, then that’s not the EUs fault surely.

If the results of the election don’t go the way we want, as long as the result is fair, it’s still democratic isn’t it?

No, the EU just gives the appearance of a democracy. It's the Eurocrats (the Civil Servants of the EU) that set the agenda.

An MEP cannot take on a local issue and promise legislation unless he/she knows that the Eurocrats are going to bring it forward. Democracy is a cynical illusion. A lot of people fall for it, though.

[1andrew1]

Whatever your viewpoint, I think this is an informative read. It explains that establishing regulators for a country leaving the EU is a big deal and hard to do/impossible in the timescale of 12 months that Article 50 provides.

Once you’re in the EU, you share regulatory infrastructure. You’ve entered into a regulatory web designed to make things easier to trade and run around the continent. Drugs are licensed by the European Medicines Agency. Intellectual property rights for new plant varieties are granted through the Community Plant Variety Office. The safety checks for airplane parts are recognised by the European Aviation Safety Agency. The legal oversight for the transportation of nuclear materials is provided by Euratom.
If you leave Europe without a deal in March 2019, you lose access to these regulators. The consequences are sci-fi level bad. They are basically just not conscionable. No government with even a bat-squeak of responsibility would allow such a thing to pass.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/p...-europes-bluff

To me, the best way of leaving would sort out your plan, get as much inftrastructure in place as you can and then Invoke Article 50 from a stronger position.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

What I said wasn’t an opinion so I am not sure what was naive about what I posted. MEPs are elected (sort of under the d’Hondt proportional representation system) If the electorate is politically engaged then they have the option to not vote for parties that do not reflect their interests or indeed stand themselves if no one does. That opportunity comes up every 5 years, just like our parliament.

To say the EU is not democratic is not true if the voting population are engaged in the process. If they or we are not, then that’s not the EUs fault surely.

If the results of the election don’t go the way we want, as long as the result is fair, it’s still democratic isn’t it?

It is indeed naïve (or pedantic) to describe the EU as democratic. I have explained why the Parliament is undemocratic and just because they have elections every 5 years doesn't make the result democratic for the voters of Britain. Which is one of the sound reasons that they have rejected the EU.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It is indeed naïve (or pedantic) to describe the EU as democratic. I have explained why the Parliament is undemocratic and just because they have elections every 5 years doesn't make the result democratic for the voters of Britain. Which is one of the sound reasons that they have rejected the EU.

I'm not sure I get what you mean here. You said that MEPs from other countries gang up on UK MEPs so UK loses in the European Parliament. In some ways, you are right but some of that is due to the Conservative MEPs leaving the influential EPP group and forming the smaller ECR group. The second factor is the rise of UKIP and the EFD group whose 'winning' record is the lowest in the EU Parliament. An interesting analysis of voting records in the EU Parliament is available here - http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...an-parliament/ You can see the decline in winning positions from EP6 (2004-2009) and later.

However, being in the 'losing' side doesn't mean things are undemocratic. Should Labour supporters regard the UK Parliament undemocratic? Indeed, should Remain voters call the referendum undemocratic because they didn't get their way?

On the council side, the UK votes on the winning side almost 87% of the time. Here's an blog post part written by the same poerson who did the Parliament analysis, Simon Hix - http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does...-of-ministers/ Again, you can see the decline in the UK winning position post 2009

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I'm not sure I get what you mean here. You said that MEPs from other countries gang up on UK MEPs so UK loses in the European Parliament. In some ways, you are right but some of that is due to the Conservative MEPs leaving the influential EPP group and forming the smaller ECR group. The second factor is the rise of UKIP and the EFD group whose 'winning' record is the lowest in the EU Parliament. An interesting analysis of voting records in the EU Parliament is available here - http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...an-parliament/ You can see the decline in winning positions from EP6 (2004-2009) and later.

However, being in the 'losing' side doesn't mean things are undemocratic. Should Labour supporters regard the UK Parliament undemocratic? Indeed, should Remain voters call the referendum undemocratic because they didn't get their way?

On the council side, the UK votes on the winning side almost 87% of the time. Here's an blog post part written by the same poerson who did the Parliament analysis, Simon Hix - http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does...-of-ministers/ Again, you can see the decline in the UK winning position post 2009

We're never going to agree. I'm arguing on a different plane from you.