Government & Post Election Discussion

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Maybe you'd better ask them! The fact is, that's what they want, and remainers will never understand because they are so wedded to the EU.

I don’t have to ask them - I can ask in the hypothetical here if I please. Indeed, if you as a leaver can understand why then I invite you to explain it to me!

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You really are clutching at straws with these arguments, jfman. Anyway, carry on regardless...[COLOR="Silver"]

Is any part of my statement untrue?

The banks were bailed out, indeed essentially the failure of capitalism bailed out, to the tune of billions and the public at large got austerity.

The 2008 economic crisis wasn’t because the council used to empty my bin once a week.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You really are clutching at straws with these arguments, jfman. Anyway, carry on regardless...

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Only a minority of MPs have left the party, Den and the vast majority of Conservative voters I speak to are all for Brexit.

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It's not over-confidence, and clearly you are underestimating Boris.

He will win the appeal on Tuesday because the Bill of Rights clarify that the courts should not interfere with House of Commons procedure.

Parliament will not re-convene until after the conference season. When it does re-convene, we will have the Queen's Speech, and if further wrecking tactics look inevitable, Parliament can be prorogued again until 1 November. Then a General Election will be called for and the opposition will have run out of options to oppose it. The wreckers are running out of options now.

Strangely enough, here in Leeds North-West, a majority of Conservative voters I talk to are for Remain - just goes to show, we can't count on localised anecdotes to give the full picture...

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

The Sunday Times (and the Mail) is reporting that Dominic Cummings told Tory special advisors that if the Government loses in court they'll just prologue Parliament again.

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/sta...40164081868800

And this seems to be flaw in the Benn act that might have been spotted; https://waitingfortax.com/2019/09/15...-the-benn-act/

Essentially Boris Johnson can get Parliament to pass the Withdrawal Agreement before immediately prologue again preventing the further legalisation required to avoid no deal.

I see zero chance of any of that happening.

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Originally Posted by Mr K

Why not just abolish parliament altogether, have a dictatorship?? His first go at silencing them may yet be ruled illegal. Grasping at straws methinks....

And who elected this Cummings bloke anyway?

Well we’re almost there now aren’t we, with Parliament denying the execution of the result of the referendum to the electorate.

Whether you are dictated by an individual (Saddam) or a group (Chinese Gov’t) or Parliament....it’s still a dictatorship.

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Originally Posted by Hugh

Point missed completely...

You very adept at saying that, very rarely do you back it up with actual point though..........

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Originally Posted by jfman

Why would a working class Labour voter favour no deal,

I don’t know geographically where you live, but that is one of the most naive statements I’ve ever read on here.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Strangely enough, here in Leeds North-West, a majority of Conservative voters I talk to are for Remain - just goes to show, we can't count on localised anecdotes to give the full picture...

Where i live the people voted heavily for leave,and funily enough i have never interogated anyone on how they voted because it's none of my business,i seriously doubt you go around interogating folk on how they voted either ,your story has a wiff of bull but that in itself is nothing out of the ordinary

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I don’t know geographically where you live, but that is one of the most naive statements I’ve ever read on here.

Enlighten me. Why “no deal”?

How do the poor, decimated, industrial towns and cities benefit from no deal over a continuing trading arrangement with our largest trading partner?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

I don’t have to ask them - I can ask in the hypothetical here if I please. Indeed, if you as a leaver can understand why then I invite you to explain it to me!

Well, that little problem of free movement allowing Europeans to take their jobs has been well reported, for a start.

Really, if you do not understand all this, there's nothing I can say to make you understand. All these arguments have been stated over and over again on this forum, and frankly, it's getting really boring having to make the same points over and over again.

The fact of the matter is, if all those remain-inclined voters who are attempting to stop Brexit do not understand the issues by now, it just goes to show that even if matters were set out in detail and without the fibbing at the referendum, they still would not understand.

I do hope that this is the last we will see of referenda - they are too divisive and disruptive.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Well, that little problem of free movement allowing Europeans to take their jobs has been well reported, for a start.

Really, if you do not understand all this, there's nothing I can say to make you understand. All these arguments have been stated over and over again on this forum, and frankly, it's getting really boring having to make the same points over and over again.

The fact of the matter is, if all those remain-inclined voters who are attempting to stop Brexit do not understand the issues by now, it just goes to show that even if matters were set out in detail and without the fibbing at the referendum, they still would not understand.

I do hope that this is the last we will see of referenda - they are too divisive and disruptive.

Ending free movement doesn’t rely on “no deal”. Theresa May’s deal, for it’s faults, delivered on that.

I’m going to ignore the rest of the post because, once again, you’ve answered the question you wanted to answer. Not what was asked.

What benefit is there to working class Labour voters to have “no deal” over a deal? You told me you could explain; evidently you cannot.

Are you making the astonishing claim that working class Labour voters didn’t know what they were voting for?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Enlighten me. Why “no deal”?

How do the poor, decimated, industrial towns and cities benefit from no deal over a continuing trading arrangement with our largest trading partner?

I very much doubt “economics” came into it. The disenfranchised areas in the midlands, North and also in other areas around the country. That have seen through membership of the EU and the 4 freedoms seen manufacturing plants moved to Europe and Eastern Europe. migration issues.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...dustries---an/

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/06...d%27s+Diary%29

https://independencedaily.co.uk/the-...oh-no-it-isnt/

And i’m Painfully aware that with any anti-EU article, there is a pro-EU article that can debunk it and vice-Versa.

However, certain areas have seen a massive decline, New Labour with Blair forcing through the Lisbon Treaty and not implementing controls ( that were available) on immigration, and generally ignoring their heartlands in these areas so much so that the BNP got a foothold.


New Labour embraced the Westminster bubble

Labour didn’t save this.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...1600-jobs.html

But criticised Tories when it eventually went under.

The days when Northerners would hang monkeys and blindly vote for any knob wearing a red rosette are happily over.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I very much doubt “economics” came into it. The disenfranchised areas in the midlands, North and also in other areas around the country. That have seen through membership of the EU and the 4 freedoms seen manufacturing plants moved to Europe and Eastern Europe. migration issues.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...dustries---an/

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/06...d%27s+Diary%29

https://independencedaily.co.uk/the-...oh-no-it-isnt/

And i’m Painfully aware that with any anti-EU article, there is a pro-EU article that can debunk it and vice-Versa.

However, certain areas have seen a massive decline, New Labour with Blair forcing through the Lisbon Treaty and not implementing controls ( that were available) on immigration, and generally ignoring their heartlands in these areas so much so that the BNP got a foothold.


New Labour embraced the Westminster bubble

Labour didn’t save this.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...1600-jobs.html

But criticised Tories when it eventually went under.

The days when Northerners would hang monkeys and blindly vote for any knob wearing a red rosette are happily over.

Thanks for this insight which also doesn’t answer the question. Unless your answer was xenophobia I suppose.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Thanks for this insight which also doesn’t answer the question. Unless your answer was xenophobia I suppose.

You’re priceless.

You usually give the impression as someone fairly switched on, but in these 2no. Posts you have been proven to be as blind and ignorant as most o/s of the M25, and certainly South of Watford Gap.

And your considered response to the defining issues in the Labour heartlands ......” well you’re all racists”...... just like the 17.4 milllion others and basically anyone that wants Brexit. Yeah you and they are all just racists so no need to delve into the issues.

Job done, racists, fcuk ‘em.

Right what’s next? Oh yes, the destruction of democracy.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Where i live the people voted heavily for leave,and funily enough i have never interogated anyone on how they voted because it's none of my business,i seriously doubt you go around interogating folk on how they voted either ,your story has a wiff of bull but that in itself is nothing out of the ordinary

Well, I have conversations with friends and people I know in the Constituency, having been an active member in the Constituency Party since 1982, funnily enough Brexit comes up in those conversations - no interrogation* required..

Any ordure emanations you are noticing may be from your own orifices.

*strange that you didn’t accuse Old Boy of "interrogations"...

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

You’re priceless.

You usually give the impression as someone fairly switched on, but in these 2no. Posts you have been proven to be as blind and ignorant as most o/s of the M25, and certainly South of Watford Gap.

And your considered response to the defining issues in the Labour heartlands ......” well you’re all racists”...... just like the 17.4 milllion others and basically anyone that wants Brexit. Yeah you and they are all just racists so no need to delve into the issues.

Job done, racists, fcuk ‘em.

Right what’s next? Oh yes, the destruction of democracy.

I asked why a “working class Labour” voter would favour no deal over a deal. I’ve had two responses now relating to freedom of movement, which ends even under Theresa May’s deal so that’s a red herring.

Unless you are saying that these voters are irrational and bitter so will hold that against the EU despite, as you correctly point out, our Government never implementing the controls it could/should have.

Originally Posted by Pierre

You’re priceless.

You usually give the impression as someone fairly switched on, but in these 2no. Posts you have been proven to be as blind and ignorant as most o/s of the M25, and certainly South of Watford Gap.

And your considered response to the defining issues in the Labour heartlands ......” well you’re all racists”...... just like the 17.4 milllion others and basically anyone that wants Brexit. Yeah you and they are all just racists so no need to delve into the issues.

Job done, racists, fcuk ‘em.

Right what’s next? Oh yes, the destruction of democracy.

He didn’t call anyone racists - he was referring to Hartlepool, where the legend is that they hung a monkey because they thought it was a French spy (which is why Hartlepool residents are referred to as "monkey hangers", in the same way as Middlesbrough residents are referred to as "smog monsters").

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...lepool-Monkey/

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I asked why a “working class Labour” voter would favour no deal over a deal. I’ve had two responses now relating to freedom of movement, which ends even under Theresa May’s deal so that’s a red herring.

That was only part of my post, the movement of industry to other EU countries, and the failure of Labour to save industry in their heartlands was also there.

Freedom of movement May have ended under May’s deal, but that was rejected by Parliament. So don’t what you expect the electorate to say about that. As they have no say on it.

Unless you are saying that these voters are irrational and bitter

Bitter ......maybe. Irrational.......no.

Irrational according to whom? That is a subjective position and unless you are in their position you are in no place to call anyone irrational.

[Gavin78]

Originally Posted by jfman

Enlighten me. Why “no deal”?

How do the poor, decimated, industrial towns and cities benefit from no deal over a continuing trading arrangement with our largest trading partner?

Maybe because large areas of low paid jobs like manufacturing have been taken over by Europeans pushing out local workers looking for work.

This is probably one of the reasons zero hour contracts came in, high turn over for little pay